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Farm country feeds America, but try buying groceries there

nytimes.com

311–320 of 337 posts

Re: Farm country feeds America, but try buying groceries there

#311

We are very fortunate. We live in a very rural, conservative, very northern coastal town of California (next door to Oregon). Our typical shopping day has us first visiting a local farm to purchase Eggs, Cream, Beef, and Pork products all organic and locally grown (Alexandre Family Farms). Our next stop is the farm stand for our local organic farm to get in-season fresh vegetables picked very recently (Ocean Air Farm…

This is time, effort and money people tend to find difficult to allocate. Do they spend their day off across four locations going shopping and neglect their yard or catching up with friends? It's possible to do it all, but easier to convince yourself you can't because you're tired, saving money, stressed from work/kids/etc.

Re: Farm country feeds America, but try buying groceries there

#312
post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever, like, left the city, man? Do you really think everyone can just live in the city without anyone out in the rural areas, you know, growing your fucking food?

Everyone hates government spending, until they want another handout. We already massively subsidize rural living costs, stop that and the free market would raise wages to compensate without the need for government intervention. Subsidized, farms, roads, healthcare, telecoms, deliveries, airports, etc etc it’s just wasteful.

Those farms would be undercut by foreign farmers with less sustainable practices.

Re: Farm country feeds America, but try buying groceries there

#313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure we’re a society, but we’re not a post scarcity society and wasteful programs divert money from things that are more important. When we have guaranteed lunches for every school student, then we can talk about subsidizing services for people in rural areas. (Who often aren’t exactly poor, because of the massive subsidies we pay for agriculture.)

> When we have guaranteed lunches for every school student, then we can talk about subsidizing services for people in rural areas. Why do these have to be a one or the other? It's like the argument of "Why are we doing stuff in space while we still have poor people". As a society we're capable of solving multiple problems simultaneously. Many farmers are going out of business because of major corporations driving out…

You can get voters to part with only so much of their own money to help other people. You can always appeal to them for more, but in the meantime you need to be spending what you’ve got effectively.

Re: Farm country feeds America, but try buying groceries there

#314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't believe that rural Americans are any more or less dependent than urban Americans. It is just different. In a lot of places there just isn't enough population density to have everything.

They absolutely are subsidized and dependent. Rural areas receive far more in government spending, in social welfare and roads and whatnot, than they receive. The sad part is that they think urban areas are the dependent ones. They want to think of themselves as ruggedly independent compared to city slickers, so the willful ignorance runs deep.

Did you actually run the numbers? Did you include all the welfare, county hospitals in violent cities, urban renewal programs,subway subsidies?

Re: Farm country feeds America, but try buying groceries there

#315
post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone hates government spending, until they want another handout. We already massively subsidize rural living costs, stop that and the free market would raise wages to compensate without the need for government intervention. Subsidized, farms, roads, healthcare, telecoms, deliveries, airports, etc etc it’s just wasteful.

If you think the free market would serve markets better, then why are there food deserts? The truth is that the free market optimises for maximised ROI to the exclusion of all else. There used to be a lot of smaller retailers serving communities - smaller markets, corner stores, delis, etc. Large retailers came in and set up super stores which offered comparable goods at lower prices (due to the larger purchasing pow…

Food deserts in urban areas are a direct result of people’s spending habits. There is plenty of people, but stores don’t stock products people don’t buy. Further if they did it would just go to waste.

If you want root causes, I would propose it’s a combination of subsidies on other foods combined with the reduced taste of modern fruits and vegetables.

Re: Farm country feeds America, but try buying groceries there

#316
post #72
post #18

This doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Stores like Walmart and Dollar stores opened up, and consumer made the choice to shop there rather than at local grocery stores . Sounds like they are getting exactly what they wanted? Reminds me of folks in SF who bemoan the loss of a local butcher store. Sure, they may like buying organic cuts of meat at $15/lb, but it's obviously most people don't, that's why those stores we…

Yes and no. Walmart often is not going to have food as fresh as a Farmers market or community store. But farmers may feel the need to shop there anyway due to prices. Perhaps they still wanted fresh produce too, but because they weren't buying enough , the result was that couldn't buy any . People are not good at predicting long term effects of their purchasing decisions. This had been a trend for the last 20 years:…

My local walmart has adverts on the shelves in the produce/deli/butcher areas that show the sourcing is actually quite local.

Re: Farm country feeds America, but try buying groceries there

#317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The car dependency of rural America is certainly worth discussing, and this specific grocery store case does have consequences. As one example, in towns like this retirement homes or apartments catering to older people are often within walking or shuttle distance of a town center with a grocery store, which helps preserve independence for people who no longer drive. But the focus of the article is strange, and seems…

45 miles is like what, a 35 minute drive in a rural area? Costco runs in Westchester NY took about that long when we depended on public transit.

No. That would mean an average speed of 77 miles per hour. And given that you need to slow down in the small towns and before passing that means your normal speed would be more than 85 mph. Around here the rural speed limit is 55 mph so people drive about 60 mph.

Re: Farm country feeds America, but try buying groceries there

#318

So the town in the article is going to be nearly completely unlivable without a vehicle and is about 20 miles from a Walmart. There will be few decent jobs that are walkable, limited medical care, etc, in a town of 1,500, it is just the way it is. Which isn't to say that these folks can't lament reduced access to food, but the literal availability of food is low there only if you ignore that other circumstances alrea…

Yes, this exists. A majority of my family lives in Ohio, and the town they live in is about 20 miles to the nearest Walmart.

I don't understand this. By the time you drive 20 miles in Germany (starting from a city) you not only have passed a "town" you have also arrived in the next city.

Re: Farm country feeds America, but try buying groceries there

#319
post #308
post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What "higher quality" stores? Have you ever been to little mom-n-pop shops in the days before Walmart? They were generally pretty terrible: the prices were high, the service wasn't very good (they didn't have liberal return policies), they might even be rude to you, and the selection was absolutely terrible. How is that "higher quality"? You seem to have some naive idea image of quaint little small towns in the "old…

I don't disagree, but were they always like that, or more so as the proprietors faced increasing cost pressures and competition, and became jaded?

No, they were always like this, because they could be. Take off the rose-tinted glasses; everything wasn't quaint and wonderful in "the old days". Those were the days when those wonderful mom-n-pop shops would refuse service to black people, for instance.

Re: Farm country feeds America, but try buying groceries there

#320
post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Universal healthcare and UBI aren't going to magically make a town economically viable. It'll just result in other places subsidizing some people to live in that place and sit on their asses mostly. It might work out if lots of such people congregate in one place, which will turn it back into an economically viable location, with people starting businesses (since UBI does help entrepreneurialism after all), but if it…

I mostly agree with you but this is a fairly uncharitable read of small town Americans. You say yourself that socialism won’t fix the plight of their towns dying out, so they’re not wrong to be against socialism in this case. Furthermore, moving to a major city is expensive, so it can be very difficult even if the desire is there. Having family or a struggling farm or business that depends on you is another way to ge…

>You say yourself that socialism won’t fix the plight of their towns dying out, so they’re not wrong to be against socialism in this case.

How are they not wrong, and not hypocritical? If we leave them to pure capitalism, they would all just die out. So why should they get any help at all, when that's socialism and directly contrary to their stated values?

>Furthermore, moving to a major city is expensive

It's not expensive to live in your car. Countless immigrants come to this country with basically nothing, and manage to grow roots and even start thriving, successful businesses. But you're telling me some small-town American can't do that, because it's "too expensive to move"?

>Having family or a struggling farm or business

If the business is struggling, it's time to sell it and move on. And what does family have to do with anything? As I said above, countless immigrants come here across oceans and manage to thrive, and they don't whine about their extended families they left behind.

>Even immigrants have a support network of other co-immigrants, usually.

Maybe, maybe not. Someone had to be the first.

>Encouraging businesses to open up in these towns could be good policy

Why would they do this? There's no skilled workforce left there, there's not enough of an economic base; it really makes no economic sense. There's a reason people have been building and living in cities for several millennia now. Small towns only make sense when there's some industry there supporting it, usually having to do with resource extraction (e.g. mining) or agriculture. Once those dry up, the town's reason for existence is gone.

>Other towns should close, but there would need to be some help buying people out of their homes where most equity resides.]

Why should these anti-socialist people get a socialist benefit program like this?

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