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German government expands subsidies for electric cars

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Re: German government expands subsidies for electric cars

#141

Post by fluffything »

thinkcontext wrote: post #29
fluffything wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only VW, any company can opt-in to the subsidies: the state pays half and the company the other half. What's funny is how the requirement of a <= 60k EUR car price means that those buying a Tesla won't get any subsidies. It's kind of understandable though: in Germany most cars are sold in the 10-20k EUR range, so it would be political suicide to create a subsidy to pay for what most citizens consider a luxury. Su…

Tesla Model 3 has a base price of 44.5K EUR. https://cleantechnica.com/2019/04/13/tesla-model-3-vs-bmw-3-...

Yes, just checked. Weird, a college got one early this year, and paid slightly over 70k EUR for a model 3.

Re: German government expands subsidies for electric cars

#142

Post by fluffything »

jlg23 wrote: post #130
richardknop wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an expensive car in European standards. 20k is what most people pay for a car here. 45k car is a luxury imho.

Which Europe are you talking about? 20k gets you a halfway decent Dacia at best...

For 48k EUR I can buy a decent Porsche Panamera, for example. https://www.autoscout24.de/angebote/porsche-panamera-4-s-ind...

For 20k EUR I get a decent Mercedes C 220: https://www.autoscout24.de/angebote/mercedes-benz-c-220-c-kl...

or a decent E350 with 40k km (similar to the one I bought, see below): https://www.autoscout24.de/angebote/mercedes-benz-e-350-t-cd...

etc. The only people buying new cars in Germany are either private companies / leasing companies, or rich people that don't know what to do with their money.

You can get pretty much any 2 year old car with 20-40k km for 1/2 of the original price in perfect condition, and 1/4 of the original price with 100k km and being 3 year old model which is more or less what many leasing car get in the 2-3 years its leased.

I was looking for a car in the ~Buying new cars makes zero economic sense. Even if you try to buy from the German manufacturers here, their websites offer you used cars ("refubrished") with 5 years warranty for a fraction of the price.

If you are looking for a car in the 40k EUR segment, for buying new to be worth it would mean that 20k EUR are "nothing" for you, which is hard to believe because if that were the case you'd be actually looking at cars in at least the 80-120k range. Even for somebody making 120k EUR/year, 20k EUR is still not pocket change, its two months salary full-time.

Re: German government expands subsidies for electric cars

#143

Post by C1sc0cat »

the-dude wrote: post #116
pkaye wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> buys her electricity via a key not so much. What does "via a key" mean?

I am not sure of the current mechanism, but I know the UK has "coin" systems for gas ( heating ). So you would buy a coin, put it into your meter at home, and get a certain amount of gas. This is, of course, tailored at the poor.

And of course is more expensive see the Vimes Boot Theory

Re: German government expands subsidies for electric cars

#144

Post by C1sc0cat »

wongarsu wrote: post #94
C1sc0cat wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In which European state is this I bet there is a difference between the ex Warsaw pact sates where a Trabant or a 2 generation old Fiat was a luxury, and the Rich parts of Germany or the UK

Living in Western Germany I mostly see vehicles in the 10k-25k range. There is a difference if you go to the most expensive cities though, like Munich.

You cant use anecdotes here you need to look at the figures - at one point Greece had the highest number (relative to population) of Porsche Caynnes

Re: German government expands subsidies for electric cars

#145

Post by C1sc0cat »

smileysteve wrote: post #101
C1sc0cat wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1 The US grid is "in need of improvement" see California 2 Not everyone lives in a house with of street parking

As this is in the context of Montana, 1. not every part of the U.S. grid is in dire need of improvement, most homes have access to 240v most of the time. (with the exception of the 1 state that has assigned fire damages to their utility. And, most vehicles are charged at night, outside of peak demand. (also, the Tesla wall was a technology that further decreased demand on the grid) 2. Most of Montana is going to have…

"most" of the time - I think you don't realise how bad this is compared to say the UK or France or Germany

Re: German government expands subsidies for electric cars

#146

Post by smileysteve »

C1sc0cat wrote: post #145
smileysteve wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As this is in the context of Montana, 1. not every part of the U.S. grid is in dire need of improvement, most homes have access to 240v most of the time. (with the exception of the 1 state that has assigned fire damages to their utility. And, most vehicles are charged at night, outside of peak demand. (also, the Tesla wall was a technology that further decreased demand on the grid) 2. Most of Montana is going to have…

"most" of the time - I think you don't realise how bad this is compared to say the UK or France or Germany

Sorry, for states other than California, this year, that should say all of the the time; And part of why every house is wired for 240 is because our dryers and hvacs all use 240.

Re: German government expands subsidies for electric cars

#147

Post by C1sc0cat »

smileysteve wrote: post #146
C1sc0cat wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"most" of the time - I think you don't realise how bad this is compared to say the UK or France or Germany

Sorry, for states other than California, this year, that should say all of the the time; And part of why every house is wired for 240 is because our dryers and hvacs all use 240.

True but the equivalent of that else where is the 415 V cooker circuit.

All the mains sockets in uk houses are 240v - this is whey you never see an electric kettle in US homes

Re: German government expands subsidies for electric cars

#148

Post by smileysteve »

C1sc0cat wrote: post #147
smileysteve wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, for states other than California, this year, that should say all of the the time; And part of why every house is wired for 240 is because our dryers and hvacs all use 240.

True but the equivalent of that else where is the 415 V cooker circuit. All the mains sockets in uk houses are 240v - this is whey you never see an electric kettle in US homes

We're really conflating apples and oranges here as the voltage is only half the equation;

By code, US 2 phase (120x2 == 240) is going to be wired with lower gauge wire to provide more overall electricity. Typically, the 240v is going to be capable of providing 600 total amps (though there are cases where 400amp is served); with a typical breaker at 30 or 40 amps. compared to a triple 415 providing 8 or 15amps.

Re: German government expands subsidies for electric cars

#149

Post by lm28469 »

mooktakim wrote: post #82
lm28469 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm hoping soon every lamp post will have a charging plug. I don't see any major city doing that anytime soon. The grid is not ready, power plants are not ready, it would cost billions to rewire everything, especially in old European towns. And even more for germany since they're shutting down coal and nuclear right now. It's not a big issue though, we should focus on getting rid of personal cars and that's somethi…

Firstly, when they add these types of charging stations, they will make the grid ready. Secondly, grid has a lot of capacity. Its like motorways, most of the time its under utilised. Only during peak time that it is full capacity. Think of the grid in a similar way. Its mostly under utilised except for peak time. All we need to do is make use of it outside peak time (with batteries) and suddenly we have double or tri…

What about all the people getting from/to work roughly at the same time and plugging their cars. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TV_pickup for example, and that's just tea pots

> All we need to do is make use of it outside peak time

Seems like a huge thing to overcome to me.

Re: German government expands subsidies for electric cars

#150

Post by llampx »

fluffything wrote: post #142
jlg23 wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which Europe are you talking about? 20k gets you a halfway decent Dacia at best...

For 48k EUR I can buy a decent Porsche Panamera, for example. https://www.autoscout24.de/angebote/porsche-panamera-4-s-ind... For 20k EUR I get a decent Mercedes C 220: https://www.autoscout24.de/angebote/mercedes-benz-c-220-c-kl... or a decent E350 with 40k km (similar to the one I bought, see below): https://www.autoscout24.de/angebote/mercedes-benz-e-350-t-cd... etc. The only people buying new cars in Germany are…

The only issue I have with this is that you can't really buy used EVs yet. I'm interested in buying an EV but it's like smartphones in 2008 - the rate of improvement is high so it makes sense to buy new.
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