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Glyphosate in Organic Hydroponic Food Production

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Re: Glyphosate in Organic Hydroponic Food Production

#31

Post by torgoguys »

eth0up wrote: post #27
torgoguys wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And who is to say that organic carrot you're eating is any better for you. From a pesticide standpoint, almost all of the pesticides we eat (by weight) are natural and possible carcinogens. [1] A person's synthetic pesticide exposure is dwarfed by the natural pesticide chemicals the plants produce themselves (except for farm workers). Dose makes the poison--at the small levels we intake, with normal handling, risk is…

I'll climb on the soapbox. Glyphosate is great stuff. Good on sandwiches too. Hell, even Patrick Moore[1] does shots[2] of the stuff and he's almost perfect. 1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Moore_(consultant) 2. https://time.com/3761053/monsanto-weed-killer-drink-patrick-... Edit: original comment was abridged by the benevolence of Verizon and their warm wireless affection for rural vermin. Rather than rew…

The not drinking glyphosate thing is way overblown. The best data we have says that eating Crayolas is safe. Young children do it all the time. They're non-toxic by design. That doesn't mean that I'm going to munch down a boxful if asked to. It isn't food.

OF COURSE he didn't drink it. Again, it isn't food.

Re: Glyphosate in Organic Hydroponic Food Production

#32

Post by wahern »

thrower123 wrote: post #13
prvc wrote: post #3

The buried lede here is that "organic", as applied to food is itself a meaningless concept. It's just an ersatz religious practice. What assurance is there that no glyphosate particles have found their way onto your artisanal apple grown in zebu manure?

The only way to know for sure is to plant your own garden. Although when you've had the Japanese beetles or cutworm or potato bugs ravage your harvest, considerations about being 100% organic lose some of their weight and it takes a lot of commitment not to break out the rotenone or Sevin.

> The only way to know for sure is to plant your own garden

Presuming you test your soil, first. Leaded paint and leaded gasoline have heavily contaminated large parts of residential land, especially those parts closest to buildings.

Unlike with commercial produce where only a particular plant here or there may have come from a contaminated patch of land, if your garden is contaminated you're being exposed regularly.

Similarly, even if all the land around you is pristine, who knows what a previous owner may have done at any particular spot. Maybe someone once stacked a dozen, leaky lead-acid batteries where you want to plant your garden. It's kind of unthinkable for many people today (if only because we're not a fix-it yourself society much anymore), but people regularly did dumb stuff like that years ago, and some still do today.

Re: Glyphosate in Organic Hydroponic Food Production

#33

Post by eth0up »

torgoguys wrote: post #31
eth0up wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll climb on the soapbox. Glyphosate is great stuff. Good on sandwiches too. Hell, even Patrick Moore[1] does shots[2] of the stuff and he's almost perfect. 1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Moore_(consultant) 2. https://time.com/3761053/monsanto-weed-killer-drink-patrick-... Edit: original comment was abridged by the benevolence of Verizon and their warm wireless affection for rural vermin. Rather than rew…

The not drinking glyphosate thing is way overblown. The best data we have says that eating Crayolas is safe. Young children do it all the time. They're non-toxic by design. That doesn't mean that I'm going to munch down a boxful if asked to. It isn't food. OF COURSE he didn't drink it. Again, it isn't food.

Then consider allowing your children to merely gargle with glyphosate, and remove their crayon-eating privileges if they insist on persevering to digestive phases.

Re: Glyphosate in Organic Hydroponic Food Production

#34

Post by mikeiz404 »

So I am a little confused here. My understanding of hydroponics, a method which uses an inert medium for the root system to grow in and is often a relatively closed system, aquaponics, also a pretty closed system which uses water for the roots to grow in, and aeroponics, a relatively closed system which uses a fine mist for the root system, have pretty much zero interaction with the soil which is outside of the system.

What is stated is that

>glyphosate...is being sprayed on fields prior to constructing hydroponic greenhouses awaiting organic certification. This is done to remove weeds from the greenhouses.

>The way this use of herbicide is incorporated into “organic” certification is to...level a field, compact it..., wait...until the weeds...have germinated. And then spray it with an herbicide. They are doing this in California and Florida. The weeds...can grow straight through the black plastic.

What I take away is that the herbicide is being sprayed as part of construction on the ground and then it is covered. My guess is that this black plastic is used as a weed block and or helps isolate the outside environment.

>the NOP continues to assert that hydroponic, aquaponic, and aeroponic production is allowed (1). NOP argues that because glyphosate does not “touch” the plants being certified, it is technically still “organic.

Typically in a hydroponic setup you’re growing the root system in a container filled with a nutrient solution which is not in contact with the soil so it seems reasonable to assume the plant will not be in contact with the soil. Except for maybe the air, the inputs to the plant should also be isolated from the soil. At least that is my understanding. Please feel free to correct any errors here.

So from a strictly certification standpoint I can understand why the fruit would remain organic. However it does seem to violate the intent I assume most people buy organic products for.

Personally I’m not sure where I stand on glyphosates at the moment but given language like this in the article...

>Using common sense, this would rightfully deem any product non-organic – but this doesn’t seem to be the case for hydroponics

>Besides the fact that it is obvious that organics cannot and should not be sprayed with glyphosate, the NOP continues to assert that...

>If that’s not the craziest assumption I’ve heard in regards to organic food production, I don’t know what is...

I feel like some of this needs to be balanced out and we approach this with our eyes fully open.

Some relevant resources: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glyphosate https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroponics https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquaponics https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroponics

Re: Glyphosate in Organic Hydroponic Food Production

#35

Post by cortesoft »

objektif wrote: post #25
sbassi wrote: post #19

The title is misleading. The Glyphosate is used in the soil BEFORE the greenhouse is built. This prevent weeds to break the greenhouse plastics. But is not administered to the final product that goes to the final consumer.

Where do the potatos grow? Same soil isnt it? Isnt this a childish way to argue about it?

No... these are hydroponic, meaning they are grown without soil.

Re: Glyphosate in Organic Hydroponic Food Production

#36

Post by dragonwriter »

amadeusw wrote: post #11
designium wrote: post #4

At least, when I am purchasing "Organic" products, I would expect to use the least or zero amount of pesticide/herbicide/etc. in the growth of the "organic" plants and animals. If the article is showing the truth, it feels like those companies are cheating the consumers who are paying for that premium product. It's also unfortunate that there are certifications companies that are either created or "cooped" by compani…

You're right that the organic designation is about completely avoiding the usage of certain substances. The article refers to this idea towards the end: >As the soil becomes compacted and soaked with agrichemicals, the delicate microbiome of the soil is destroyed. The whole point of growing organically is to ensure this planet stays healthy and chemical-free.

> The whole point of growing organically is to ensure this planet stays healthy and chemical-free.

The planet is entirely made of chemicals, it can't be made chemical-free and, even if it could, that wouldn't be healthy.

Re: Glyphosate in Organic Hydroponic Food Production

#37

Post by dragonwriter »

cwojno wrote: post #28
designium wrote: post #4

At least, when I am purchasing "Organic" products, I would expect to use the least or zero amount of pesticide/herbicide/etc. in the growth of the "organic" plants and animals. If the article is showing the truth, it feels like those companies are cheating the consumers who are paying for that premium product. It's also unfortunate that there are certifications companies that are either created or "cooped" by compani…

Organic is a marketing term created by organic companies. Growing things without herbicides and pesticides is very difficult.

> Growing things without herbicides and pesticides is very difficult.

And not what organic aspires to, anyway, it just involves a fairly arbitrary set of exclusions as to which pesticides are used, which exclusions have no particular correspondence to either human health or environmental sustainability.

“Organic” is largely marketing, but what the marketing appeals to is woo to start with.

Re: Glyphosate in Organic Hydroponic Food Production

#38

Post by dx87 »

jbay808 wrote: post #24
prvc wrote: post #3

The buried lede here is that "organic", as applied to food is itself a meaningless concept. It's just an ersatz religious practice. What assurance is there that no glyphosate particles have found their way onto your artisanal apple grown in zebu manure?

Some of us who purchase organic foods don't care about the impact on the food, but rather on the farm ecosystem. Pesticides, herbicides, and fertilizers impact insect popuations, wash into rivers, and so on. It's nice to have an option to vote with our dollars in favour of more sustainable practices, even if the food isn't any healthier or tastier to eat.

Organic foods are normally grown with organic pesticides that still harm the environment, but since the pesticides aren't synthetic, the food still keeps the organic label.

Re: Glyphosate in Organic Hydroponic Food Production

#39

Post by OnlineGladiator »

tptacek wrote: post #29

I don't have an opinion for or against use of glyphosate with "organic" food and share the general cynicism of the thread about the "organic" label. But this site has a strong position on glyphosate (in accepting the premise that it is a "probable human carcinogen"), which is worth staying aware of. That position is probably totally reasonable for their audience, but keep in mind that it's automatically being reconte…

> Since part of the point of glyphosate is to reduce application of stronger herbicides that are more biologically active in humans, and those herbicides are generally neither known by name to consumers nor banned from agriculture, it's worth splitting hairs here.

I am operating completely from memory here so correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this at least partially counteracted by having to use significantly more herbicide to account for its lower efficacy?

Re: Glyphosate in Organic Hydroponic Food Production

#40

Post by axaxs »

all_blue_chucks wrote: post #9

Organic has always been a marketing gimmick to help sell generic food products. If it were actually about pesticide-free farming it would be called "pesticide-free" not "organic."

It is a pretty stupid term, moreso if you think about it from the mindset of organic chemistry...
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