Farm country feeds America, but try buying groceries there • Hacker News Board

Re: Farm country feeds America, but try buying groceries there

#261

Post by dboreham » Wed, Nov 06, 2019, 2:38 AM UTC

TulliusCicero wrote: post #220

weberc2 wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think I know any “rural person” who is complaining or even speaks about “being left behind”. Just my data point, but I grew up in rural America and still have lots of connections, so your claim is, uh, surprising to say the least. Maybe the impression of “rural Americans” you received while in the Bay Area / Munich was less than accurate?

Seriously? A huge cultural meme when it comes to Trump being elected was this idea that rural America was disaffected and disheartened because it had been 'left behind' economically. Another example, every once in a while you'll see an article or a politician talking about what a tragedy it is that broadband is more expensive/worse in rural America, and how we need to, say, support some government program to fix that…

I think it's mostly about racism /tribalism and lack of decent education. The stuff about being left behind is just air cover to make it harder to hear the dog whistles. Disclosure: I live in a rural US location. Oh and I built my own Internet (last 10 miles) because the subsidies are all tailored to big companies who already have plenty money.

Re: Farm country feeds America, but try buying groceries there

#262

Post by smileysteve » Wed, Nov 06, 2019, 2:38 AM UTC

kilo_bravo_3 wrote: post #167

refurb wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh? At some point in time these people had $X. They decided that it was better for them to shop at Walmart versus their local grocer. Is this surprising? No. Walmart offers better selection and prices. Economy of scale plays a big part in that. They had every choice to keep spending their dollars at their local grocer. And they decided not to.

The never-ending blame-shifting has to stop. Nobody killed the local grocer except for consumers. Consumers killed the middle class. Sometime, somewhere, someone walked into a store and saw a Philco radio made in Pennsylvania by unionized middle-class manufacturing workers and a cheap Japanese/Tawianese copy of the radio and bought the cheap radio. Sometime, somewhere, someone saw a mailer from Walmart and saw that t…

It's ironic that this comment and the article blame Walmart so much, because Walmarts are often serving the most local produce because they have focused on the supply chain (local fresh food lasts longer than shipped fresh food and costs less to ship)

It's also ironic because we blame Walmart for killing the local grocery store (Ingles, PigglyWiggly, Winn Dixie) -- but ignore that they first took down the corner produce store, butcher, etc.

Re: Farm country feeds America, but try buying groceries there

#263

Post by chimi » Wed, Nov 06, 2019, 2:40 AM UTC

Retric wrote: post #244

core-questions wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever, like, left the city, man? Do you really think everyone can just live in the city without anyone out in the rural areas, you know, growing your fucking food?

Everyone hates government spending, until they want another handout. We already massively subsidize rural living costs, stop that and the free market would raise wages to compensate without the need for government intervention. Subsidized, farms, roads, healthcare, telecoms, deliveries, airports, etc etc it’s just wasteful.

The "free market" is a myth. Do you have a mortgage? Do you drive a car? Do you use the internet? Do you eat food? Do you spend money? Go to national parks? Drink water?

You are the recipient of govt subsidies. We are a society and as such, some things are more valuable than people are willing to pay for them, but yet still essential to keeping society functioning.

Re: Farm country feeds America, but try buying groceries there

#264

Post by smileysteve » Wed, Nov 06, 2019, 2:42 AM UTC

ggggtez wrote: post #72

refurb wrote: post #18

This doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Stores like Walmart and Dollar stores opened up, and consumer made the choice to shop there rather than at local grocery stores . Sounds like they are getting exactly what they wanted? Reminds me of folks in SF who bemoan the loss of a local butcher store. Sure, they may like buying organic cuts of meat at $15/lb, but it's obviously most people don't, that's why those stores we…

Yes and no. Walmart often is not going to have food as fresh as a Farmers market or community store. But farmers may feel the need to shop there anyway due to prices. Perhaps they still wanted fresh produce too, but because they weren't buying enough , the result was that couldn't buy any . People are not good at predicting long term effects of their purchasing decisions. This had been a trend for the last 20 years:…

> Walmart often is not going to have food as fresh as a Farmers market or community store

Supposedly, Walmart fresh produce and meat is more locally sourced than the chain grocery stores. Because Walmart focuses on supply chain costs and order in larger quantities, they order more food from the region than anybody else.

Re: Farm country feeds America, but try buying groceries there

#265

Post by dboreham » Wed, Nov 06, 2019, 2:44 AM UTC

Aperocky wrote: post #247

Animats wrote: post #177

Think of it as the end of rural sprawl. Most small towns were built to support surrounding farming and ranching. Once that stopped being labor-intensive, the small towns lost their economic reason for being. Farming today is something like 1.2% of the US workforce. Most of the income in many small towns is now from Social Security, disability, and welfare for the people who didn't leave. In time, they will die off. T…

There need to be towns in picturesque locations (Been to western Wyoming, it's basically that non-stop) supported by industry other than agriculture. The ability to remote work should draw a subset of developers and other workers into the area as long as the corresponding infrastructure has been met. Especially for self contracting / employed software engineers.

This happens. Not everywhere because as you say it needs basic infrastructure: e.g a Costco within 1h, jet airport within 2h, 100Mbit connectivity, and some other things like neighbors you'd want to talk to. There are plenty of software developers around here in southwest Montana.

Re: Farm country feeds America, but try buying groceries there

#266

Post by megablast » Wed, Nov 06, 2019, 2:49 AM UTC

eranima wrote: post #152

Spooky23 wrote: post #6

We gave up on farms in the 80s. Agriculture is just another industrial process now. Since we subsidize growing vegetables in the desert and abroad, the market for stuff like vegetables, dairy and meats is hyper-consolidates. There are viable farms on the fringes, but they cannot get capital to grow and cannot compete. I grew up in an area of upstate NY that was a breadbasket at one time, with a rich, diverse agricult…

I'm from upstate NY, and the loss of "breadbasket" status was great for the local ecology. When we were the breadbasket of the country (when the country was much younger), all the forests were cut down and erosion and water quality were a much bigger issue.

Did that just move the same problems somewhere else?

Re: Farm country feeds America, but try buying groceries there

#267

Post by smileysteve » Wed, Nov 06, 2019, 2:54 AM UTC

burner831234 wrote: post #175

lotsofpulp wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would seem the issue is with low incomes rather than with Dollar General.

This is the thing @lotsofpulp that everyone else seems to be missing. The amount of your income that is available to spend on goods after all of your other fixed expenditures. This has been so solidly tracked in terms of stagnant wages and applies to the SMB in the area as well. Open a grocery and try to staff folks and have consistent supply of goods. Deal with shrinkage, spoilage and inefficient supply chains. Mean…

> their employees are on social services

I find this point irrelevant. As other posters have posted, the local store could rarely pay above minimum wage. Walmart not only beats minimum wage, but has a rather extensive benefit plan. (The same can be said for McDonald's, Chipotle, ChickFilA, and Starbucks.)

Re: Farm country feeds America, but try buying groceries there

#268

Post by RandomTisk » Wed, Nov 06, 2019, 2:58 AM UTC

TulliusCicero wrote: post #215

RandomTisk wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see this point of view a lot, but it's got one major flaw: A lot of my trips to the grochery store/Costco/Sams Club include far more things than I can carry. The idea of not owning a car sounds like the exact opposite of a paradise to me.

Oh, plenty of people own cars in these little towns. Most households have one, I'd bet. And getting from town to town without a car is...challenging. Possible, there are trains and buses, but it's hard. But for day to day errands, you don't need a car, you can get by fine without one. That's the difference. You have a choice, whereas in the states you don't. Small towns in the US are mostly hilariously walking-hostil…

While it would be nice to be within walking distance of many daily places, there are real downsides: Noise, air quality, crime. I live in an incredibly quiet and peaceful neighborhood. I do have to drive a good 20 minutes to get to a major grocery store but Walmart is 10 mins away and a small grocery store less than 5. I do wish there was a coffee shop within 10 minutes of walking distance, but otherwise I can't imagine any upside for me personally in "walkable" cities. People selling their public transportation and walk-able cities just doesn't resonate with me at all, in fact it sounds horrible, but I'm glad the choices are there.

Re: Farm country feeds America, but try buying groceries there

#269

Post by smileysteve » Wed, Nov 06, 2019, 2:59 AM UTC

msla wrote: post #189

AgloeDreams wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh for sure, but stores focused on bringing high margin cheap imported goods and base minimum wage jobs into communities that formerly bought locally produced goods does not exactly help this problem. Dollar General's expansion would burn if the minimum wage were raised.

> communities that formerly bought locally produced goods The communities I'm thinking of here never bought locally produced goods for most things. The communities set up along the railroads in the late 1800s never had enough of their own industry to make most things, and a lot of them in the Great Plains never had a climate fit to grow much beyond wheat and cattle. They owed their entire existence to the railroad, a…

Revitalization of a rail network, especially commuter, could work for some of these. If you add a stop that's a 30 minute high speed (150 mile) rail away from 2 major cities, that town, and towns around it would boon.

Re: Farm country feeds America, but try buying groceries there

#270

Post by briffle » Wed, Nov 06, 2019, 3:00 AM UTC

genieyclo wrote: post #96

nmcfarl wrote: post #84

Grocery Stores closing really is happening, and really is a problem. And it's part of what's killing towns - if only because attracting new folk without one is hard. We live in John Day, Or (pop 1700)(County pop 7200, area: about 2x Delaware), which we chose partially because of it's supermarket. The next closest supermarket is 90min away. (Walmart: 2h). Not having to commute hours for groceries is a big deal, as is…

Out of curiosity: why did you choose to live in such a remote/rural place?

John Day and the area around it are gorgeous. For the price of a nice home in Portland, you can have a home and acreage. Room to garden, enjoy the outdoors, and nice people. I visit there every spring, and think about it. Then I see how horrible 4g coverage is with the hills and valleys, and how slow most of the wisp are...

Starlink might really change things for rural internet