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Tech and Liberty

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71–80 of 170 posts

Re: Tech and Liberty

#71
The people focused on free speech are missing the point. There is no market place of ideas. The premises of discourse in mass media are guided by corporate/government leaders. The ideas that align with the premise are allowed to circulate. Inconvenient facts are ignored or dismissed. This is accomplished by self censorship by leaders in mass media.

People are realizing that the social media is another lever of control. This is the game Facebook is playing. Liberty is just the post hoc rationalization for the masses.

Re: Tech and Liberty

#72

This describes precisely my own reaction to Munroe's comic. I mean, it's certainly true that discussion forums benefit from moderation to remove trolls. However, Munroe myopically assumes that the only people being de-platformed are trolls. Even if some of the people being de-platformed are provocateurs, the fact is that there's still a difference between excluding people from what is essentially a private club (as m…

What features make a private website a public square?

I often wonder: Would people feel differently if platforms were honest and direct about being a private club of some specific kind? If Twitter came out and said they wanted to be a private club for people with progressive views to discuss politics and sundry, would that dampen the criticism of censorship?

Re: Tech and Liberty

#73
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Progressives of the past were all about the principle of free speech. Now that they have the power to control the public space, all they seem to care about are the technicalities of the first amendment. Arguments like that in the comic revel in enforcing groupthink because the author thinks it will be used in a way he finds favorable. If you take a step back, it’s obvious that every censorious organization has very s…

I’m confused by your first paragraph. In what way do progressives control the public space? Republicans are far more powerful than progressives in all branches of government (and remember Democrat != progressive). Corporations obviously dominate corporate space, which is a large sphere of life in the USA, and not at all “public space”. So what’s left?

Media and entertainment. Leadership at social media companies (which control the current public square).

Re: Tech and Liberty

#74
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Progressives of the past were all about the principle of free speech. Now that they have the power to control the public space, all they seem to care about are the technicalities of the first amendment. Arguments like that in the comic revel in enforcing groupthink because the author thinks it will be used in a way he finds favorable. If you take a step back, it’s obvious that every censorious organization has very s…

I’m confused by your first paragraph. In what way do progressives control the public space? Republicans are far more powerful than progressives in all branches of government (and remember Democrat != progressive). Corporations obviously dominate corporate space, which is a large sphere of life in the USA, and not at all “public space”. So what’s left?

By “public space,” I meant the predominant avenues for public discourse (maybe not the best choice of words). Mainstream media, tech platforms, and universities are the specific things I had in mind.

Re: Tech and Liberty

#75

It's quite funny how stereotypical American Ben's blog is. The most important idea that is made explicit in the post (but not justified) is that of the marketplate of ideas, or that 'connecting people' (Zuckerberg) provides meaning, and that speech and an increase in information is a means to mount resistance against the powers that be. one alternative view was presented by Baudrillard in 1985, talking about the 'unc…

Or the Architect's speech in the Matrix correct? Where he reveals that the One is an accepted anomaly accounted for in the system.

Re: Tech and Liberty

#76

This describes precisely my own reaction to Munroe's comic. I mean, it's certainly true that discussion forums benefit from moderation to remove trolls. However, Munroe myopically assumes that the only people being de-platformed are trolls. Even if some of the people being de-platformed are provocateurs, the fact is that there's still a difference between excluding people from what is essentially a private club (as m…

What features make a private website a public square? I often wonder: Would people feel differently if platforms were honest and direct about being a private club of some specific kind? If Twitter came out and said they wanted to be a private club for people with progressive views to discuss politics and sundry, would that dampen the criticism of censorship?

I think if you have over a billion members, you shouldn’t be classified as a private club.

Re: Tech and Liberty

#77
The decision to run ads for money is itself highly political: it completely undermines the idea of free competition of ideas solely on their merits by heavily advantaging those ideas backed by money.

And if a lie can win out over the truth, this would be the mechanism that does it. It is certainly not coherent to complain about a "mob" "shouting" down an idea while trying to out shout them through money.

The points on monopoly are valid and serious. But the focus on a single de-facto monopoly, Facebook, undermines and muddles the point.

There are other de-facto and even real monopolies in broadcast media that are more influential and far more restrictive in content, Sinclair for one. I can not see how one could coherently oppose Facebook's de-facto monopoly while ignoring others that are actual monopolies, unless we make some arbitrary distinction on the technology used: radio and TV can monopolize but not web based technologies.

And lest one think that there are orders of magnitude difference between the TV/radio monopolies and Facebook, I will point out that:

1 We (the users of this site) are self selecting technologists and are much more focused on web issues while being far less dependent on non-web based media than the vast bulk of the population.

2 The intentional effects of broadcast monopolies on voting patterns are so large as to be easily measurable. Facebook's intentional influence, if it even exists, is certainly not obvious.

3 Twitter is in fact only read by a tiny segment of the population: The number of US man-hours spent listening to talk radio on monopoly owned stations vastly exceeds the number spent on Twitter where at least there is some possibility of accidentally seeing a contrary opinion.

So yes monopolizing is a serious problem and desperately needs fixing and it is vastly wider than web.

Re: Tech and Liberty

#78
Yes! I'm sick of "de-platforming." Free speech is a much bigger concept than the First Amendment can provide for. If we believe free speech to be an important "Good," it deserves more protection than the limited protections the First Amendment offers.

Re: Tech and Liberty

#79

This describes precisely my own reaction to Munroe's comic. I mean, it's certainly true that discussion forums benefit from moderation to remove trolls. However, Munroe myopically assumes that the only people being de-platformed are trolls. Even if some of the people being de-platformed are provocateurs, the fact is that there's still a difference between excluding people from what is essentially a private club (as m…

What features make a private website a public square? I often wonder: Would people feel differently if platforms were honest and direct about being a private club of some specific kind? If Twitter came out and said they wanted to be a private club for people with progressive views to discuss politics and sundry, would that dampen the criticism of censorship?

> What features make a private website a public square?

* The fact that that's what these sites bill themselves as (a place to connect everyone).

* Their user base cross-cuts most demographics (even if the samplings are always representative).

> Would people feel differently if platforms were honest and direct about being a private club of some specific kind?

Yes. You don't hear much about the government wanting to regulate Reddit, do you? It has roughly comparable number of monthly active users in the US as Twitter (26.4 million vs. 68 million) but it's built around the idea of independently moderated virtual clubs.

> If Twitter came out and said they wanted to be a private club for people with progressive views to discuss politics and sundry, would that dampen the criticism of censorship?

I think people (and advertising revenue) would move to a different platform.

Re: Tech and Liberty

#80

It's quite funny how stereotypical American Ben's blog is. The most important idea that is made explicit in the post (but not justified) is that of the marketplate of ideas, or that 'connecting people' (Zuckerberg) provides meaning, and that speech and an increase in information is a means to mount resistance against the powers that be. one alternative view was presented by Baudrillard in 1985, talking about the 'unc…

Well that is a rather fatalistic attitude that brooks no solutions.
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