L.A. temporarily suspends Uber’s permit to rent out electric scooters and bikes • Hacker News Board

Re: L.A. temporarily suspends Uber’s permit to rent out electric scooters and bikes

#201

Post by sokamyung » Tue, Nov 05, 2019, 2:13 PM UTC

icebraining wrote: post #109

sokamyung wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is ironic that you bring up the law, because the law … which supersedes any law produced by a wannabe feudal fiefdom like LA, is the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution, specifically "the right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated". Please note the "shall not be violated", which is a critical point that is misse…

In practice, courts have said that if you give your papers to a third-party (in this case, Uber), you have no expectation of privacy and a warrant isn't needed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-party_doctrine

You do realize the massive amount of abuse that opens up, right? So because you have ever given your "papers" to anyone in your whole life, therefore you have not expectation of privacy?

Seriously, I would love to know why you find that to be a perfectly fine thing, especially today when current abuses are built on presumptions based on a totally different world where "giving your papers" literally meant giving your unique paper to someone and it then would not simply be reproduced billions of times and spread all throughout the world for anyone and everyone's use against you.

I really hope that since you are here, it is not a challenge for you to realize the massive issues here at stake.

Think about what that means in practice … it's literally a mass surveillance state that violates every single tenet and even essentially every clause of the Constitution when, e.g., courts of uninformed and uneducated judges rule that "no, the real time constant surveillance and tracking of you through your devices is actually NOT a violation of the letter and, more importantly, the spirit of the 4th Amendment." How are you secure when you are literally under constant surveillance by a surveillance state, my friend.

I don't know why you types tend to have this kind of submissive and supplicant attitude towards the massive surveillance state, if it's not some sick self-hatred and self-punishment complex, but it is not a healthy mentality to have to make excuses for the mass surveillance and control by a minority of tyrants that lord over you as unaccountable demigods. How does that make any sense. I would love if you could try to explain that to me.

Re: L.A. temporarily suspends Uber’s permit to rent out electric scooters and bikes

#202

Post by candu » Tue, Nov 05, 2019, 2:14 PM UTC

sneak wrote: post #61

heavenlyblue wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GPS logging, however, contains a bunch of data unrelated to the security of bicycles themselves. I also don’t understand how mentioning JSON is even relevant in this thread.

It’s to point out that their suggestion of CCTV is really just a type of unstructured logging, and isn’t much better than the structured logging that seems to be going on today.

The point here isn't about structured vs. unstructured logging: it's about addressing the possibility that legitimate users get blamed for theft.

This sort of dispute is probably going to end up in a legal forum at some point. In that case, video footage from a device that's not physically on the bike (and therefore much harder to tamper with) is going to carry much, much, much more weight than GPS traces. Also, you usually know exactly who is supposed to have access to CCTV camera systems / footage, and can therefore have those people make legally binding representations as to their accuracy / fidelity.

(Of course, with regards to this problem, your objective as a service provider is to end up in court as infrequently as possible. You'd be more likely to invest in anti-theft measures so you can get the probability of theft low enough to reasonably write off as part of opex.)

Re: L.A. temporarily suspends Uber’s permit to rent out electric scooters and bikes

#203

Post by icebraining » Tue, Nov 05, 2019, 3:45 PM UTC

sokamyung wrote: post #201

icebraining wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In practice, courts have said that if you give your papers to a third-party (in this case, Uber), you have no expectation of privacy and a warrant isn't needed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-party_doctrine

You do realize the massive amount of abuse that opens up, right? So because you have ever given your "papers" to anyone in your whole life, therefore you have not expectation of privacy? Seriously, I would love to know why you find that to be a perfectly fine thing, especially today when current abuses are built on presumptions based on a totally different world where "giving your papers" literally meant giving your…

I'm telling you what the courts consider. I have no idea why you think I find it fine.

The fact is that the 4th amendment is only a protection insofar as you can get it enforced by those with power to do so, and that's the courts.

Re: L.A. temporarily suspends Uber’s permit to rent out electric scooters and bikes

#204

Post by reaperducer » Tue, Nov 05, 2019, 4:14 PM UTC

snagglegaggle wrote: post #189

reaperducer wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone can watch you ride a shared scooter up to your house. That's public information. Privacy only comes into play if the scooter is taken inside your house. You have no legal expectation of privacy on a public street or sidewalk.

No, GPS trackers on cars have in some cases been ruled a search.

I don't need a GPS to watch someone ride a scooter.

Re: L.A. temporarily suspends Uber’s permit to rent out electric scooters and bikes

#205

Post by foxyv » Tue, Nov 05, 2019, 4:51 PM UTC

dilap wrote: post #194

testfoobar wrote: post #88

Of all the public-goods usurped for private profit companies recently, I find the scooters to be the most intrusive. Scooters on sidewalks are dangerous and should be banned. We have explicit laws against skateboarding and riding bicycles on sidewalks in most communities. For bicyclists in San Francisco: "It’s illegal to ride on the sidewalk if you are over the age of 13. (SF Transportation Code Sec. 7.2.12)" https:/…

Requiring scooters to ride in bike lanes seems an easy, obvious fix. And, objectively, someone riding in a car is far more of a threat to pedestrian lives than someone riding on a scooter, even on the sidewalk. People traveling by scooters instead of cars is better in every way. Seems like a mistake to demonize scooters.

It's telling that we are so desensitized to how cars destroy our experience as a pedestrian that we barely notice it in comparison to someone leaving their scooter on the sidewalk.

Re: L.A. temporarily suspends Uber’s permit to rent out electric scooters and bikes

#206

Post by sieabahlpark » Tue, Nov 05, 2019, 8:18 PM UTC

asdff wrote: post #200

stefan_ wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are talking about the city that has half its space dedicated to free street parking and a bunch of highways cutting through it as if it's some sort of modern mobility policy paragon just trying to correctly price out externalities. No, whatever Ubers goal in not doing this , I'm sure the motivations of local L.A. politicians are forever more twisted. These people wouldn't know public transport if a bus ran them o…

1.2 million ride LA metro a day.

And many many many more don't. It's the second largest city in the US.

Re: L.A. temporarily suspends Uber’s permit to rent out electric scooters and bikes

#207

Post by snagglegaggle » Tue, Nov 05, 2019, 10:01 PM UTC

reaperducer wrote: post #204

snagglegaggle wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, GPS trackers on cars have in some cases been ruled a search.

I don't need a GPS to watch someone ride a scooter.

You don't, but what the court found was that putting a GPS tracker on someone's vehicle was materially different than having a real person shadow them all day.

Re: L.A. temporarily suspends Uber’s permit to rent out electric scooters and bikes

#208

Post by snagglegaggle » Tue, Nov 05, 2019, 10:55 PM UTC

chance_state wrote: post #170

snagglegaggle wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't really tell your opinion, so I guess this is for other readers: the government can be entitled to regulate an activity but at the same time not be entitled to any means of actually enforcing that regulation. A prime example is anti-sodomy laws.† In the earlier US laws would be enforcement tested and disposed of if they were intractable to actually implement; unfortunately now it seems like laws are made, and…

Can someone downvoting this person's post explain why?

At some point it looked like people were following my account and downvoting it. Everything I'd post would get to -2 or so. I think it stopped?

Apparently some twitter uses do not like HN, it is/was not just myself, someone else told me about it.