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German government expands subsidies for electric cars

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Re: German government expands subsidies for electric cars

#101

Post by smileysteve »

C1sc0cat wrote: post #91
windsurfer wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

May I ask why you wouldn't be able to charge it at home? It is my understanding that most people simply charge their electric cars overnight, much like their phones.

1 The US grid is "in need of improvement" see California 2 Not everyone lives in a house with of street parking

As this is in the context of Montana,

1. not every part of the U.S. grid is in dire need of improvement, most homes have access to 240v most of the time. (with the exception of the 1 state that has assigned fire damages to their utility. And, most vehicles are charged at night, outside of peak demand. (also, the Tesla wall was a technology that further decreased demand on the grid)

2. Most of Montana is going to have off street parking, be it a barn or garage (and with at least 120v) mostly by the necessity that sub zero temperatures ~2 months of the year freezing anti-freeze, batteries -- and that you can't use an ice scraper to scrape off feet of snow.

Re: German government expands subsidies for electric cars

#102

Post by dillz »

thinkcontext wrote: post #41
dillz wrote: post #22

Blatant and obvious lobbying by the extremely powerful German car industry. The subsidy includes premium brand plug-in hybrids such as BMW 330e and Mercedes C class - i.e. typical company cars that will very rarely use the electric engine. As gibolt mentioned, it also helps VW selling their new models. Why not subsidize public transport instead? Why has the German government been unable to make (useful) climate prote…

> typical company cars that will very rarely use the electric engine This is backwards, plugin hybrids rarely use their gas engines. BMW 330e 2020 has a 20 mile electric only range (about the same as Prius Prime). Average German car trip distance is 11 miles [0] Even if the trip is longer than 20 miles, it will only use the gas after the electric runs out. [0] Large PDF, average car trip distance on page 50 https://s…

If I understand that correctly, the survey includes all kinds of trips, including short daily drives grocery shopping and commutes. I think typical business trips in Germany are significantly above that average, but I might be wrong.

edit: Anecdotal: My father-in-law is a typical German field staff. Average daily driving distance is ~60 miles. And he certainly would not charge the car at home over night, from his private electricity bill. I doubt many people would.

Re: German government expands subsidies for electric cars

#103

Post by pound »

dawnerd wrote: post #80
Vysero wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps I am in the minority but my home is an apartment complex so I park in the parking lot. There are no chargers in the parking lot. Either way (I could be wrong) I don't think you can just plug it into a 120V outlet to get a charge.

I use my 120v outlet in my garage and it keeps the battery charged up enough - granted I'm not maxing out the range every day either. Takes about 13 hours to charge from half way.

And you're right with not maxing out the range daily - it's bad for the battery. Something like 30/40% to 70/80% SoC range is the best

Re: German government expands subsidies for electric cars

#104

Post by gpm »

devmunchies wrote: post #93
gpm wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They probably require a lot more doctor time to move from point A to point B though.

And? its an environmental initiative. I'm fine with more human risk. Its the greener option. This is Germany too, so there's already a lot more riders than in the US so drivers are accustomed to see them.

And the subsidized medical system is already subsidizing your bike. Call it an environmental subsidy for your bike if you wish.

(I don't actually know how healthcare works in Germany, not being German, but I assume it's like other first world countries in that it's subsidized by taxpayers).

Re: German government expands subsidies for electric cars

#105

Post by pound »

close04 wrote: post #77
hannasanarion wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you considered asking them if they would install one? They aren't that expensive, only about $1000 bucks, and I think there are some federal subsidies. With a service like Chargepoint, there is no cost to the landlord at all. They have a brochure you can print out on their website. Failing that you can park near a regular 120v outlet and use level 1 charging, which fills up most cars in about 8 hours.

> a regular 120v outlet and use level 1 charging, which fills up most cars in about 8 hours A regular 120V outlet is 15A at best (usually 12A). That's barely enough to charge a PHEV in 8h, let alone a BEV. Practical example [0]: > connected to a 240V outlet, the onboard 7.7kW charger should take the battery from 0-100% SoC in 2 hours 25 min. (A 120V charge will take a bit longer at just over 16.5 hours.) [0] https://…

I'd clarify that regular outlet is _usually_ 15A. 12A is what car will be drawing as this is continuous load (should be 80%, code requirements). Quite often breaker behind that 120V outlet is 20A one.

Re: German government expands subsidies for electric cars

#106

Post by newnewpdro »

devmunchies wrote: post #86
newnewpdro wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And substantially less safe...

And it'd be safer if more people were subsidized to buy them. Safety in numbers. And aren't we in a climate crisis? If its a question of environmentalism my 125cc minibike gets 150mpg. Its greener than a Tesla.

Motorcycles will never be as safe as cars, period.

Source: an experienced rider with over 100,000 miles riding all over the USA and teacher of multiple new riders.

Re: German government expands subsidies for electric cars

#107

Post by daddylonglegs »

dna_polymerase wrote: post #2

> The German government and car industry have agreed to increase joint subsidies for the purchase of electric cars on the same day automobile giant Volkswagen began production of a new all-electric vehicle. The way that company fucks Germany over and over is truly remarkable. Paid no penalties for the whole Dieselgate in Germany, now after all that they let the taxpayer fund their infrastructure. I bet their solution…

> Paid no penalties for the whole Dieselgate in Germany,

German prosecutors have charged VW's former CEO and some other executives [1]. I think it's very rare for bigwigs to be held personally responsible for pollution anywhere in the world so I see this as a refreshing change. The company itself paid a fine in Germany (one billion, I think) and has paid fines in other countries, as well as recalling a lot of cars.

As far as government support goes, well, Tesla made a ton of money from selling pollution permits and I think their car prices were also directly subsidised. I'm sure the big Chinese EV manufacturers were supported at crucial times as well. Industrial policy can be corrupt but it is a necessary part of a big, national or international level effort and I don't think there is any point in pretending otherwise.

[1] https://apnews.com/faeff4b8855c4b0daf538599ae3f9db2

Re: German government expands subsidies for electric cars

#108

Post by devmunchies »

gpm wrote: post #104
devmunchies wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And? its an environmental initiative. I'm fine with more human risk. Its the greener option. This is Germany too, so there's already a lot more riders than in the US so drivers are accustomed to see them.

And the subsidized medical system is already subsidizing your bike. Call it an environmental subsidy for your bike if you wish. (I don't actually know how healthcare works in Germany, not being German, but I assume it's like other first world countries in that it's subsidized by taxpayers).

motorcycle accidents are overwhelmingly caused by car drivers who weren't paying attention. So why would any medical cost be blamed on the motorcyclists?

Re: German government expands subsidies for electric cars

#109

Post by germanier »

arethuza wrote: post #51
k__ wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True. On the other hand, at least VW is partly owned by the state. Also, I think it's good to get into renewables for the climate and to cut the monarchs and autocrats off from their money in the long run.

Looks like VW is actually more owned by Qatar than any part of the German state: https://www.volkswagenag.com/en/InvestorRelations/shares/sha... Edit: Saxony does get more voting rights than Qatar.

It should be noted that all the profit from state owned shares ends up in the independent Volkswagen Foundation (promoting science), not the state budget.

Re: German government expands subsidies for electric cars

#110

Post by radicalbyte »

the-dude wrote: post #89
radicalbyte wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The people I see driving around in Tesla (or large Audi/Volvo) here aren't really rich, more have a decent job and a willingness to spend a substantial amount of money on a car. I don't understand it personally, I prefer cycling and having my mortgage paid off but everyone to their own :) I guess if you're in your 50s then you paid very little for your house so it makes sense to pay the 1200 EUR a month net for a car…

I don't know the numbers, but a Tesla is specifically attractive for a business owner. The subsidy is absurd. The government has acknowledged this now, and it will tapered down / abolished. Not sure.

The biggest subsidy is given to old cars - instead of using the new price you can use the market price. It's very common for business owners to purchase these old luxury cars with company money then pay 21% of the market price a year instead of 21% of the sale price.

For electric cars you pay 4% of the new price for the first 50k then 21% over the rest. Your employer pays the lease itself (about 1.2k EUR for a Model 3 last I checked).

Although this is marketed as a "tax cut to the rich" that isn't completely true. Most new car sales here come from leases. In 4 years time these cars will hit the second hand market and be bought by people like me.

We should absolutely be increasing tax on the most environmentally unfriendly leases and using that money to fund the lower rate on pure electric cars. Let the SUV drivers pay.

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