Undercover reporter reveals life in a Polish troll farm • Hacker News Board

Re: Undercover reporter reveals life in a Polish troll farm

#301

Post by RobertRoberts » Tue, Nov 05, 2019, 2:43 PM UTC

philwelch wrote: post #270

RobertRoberts wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't assume they all are, I just think there is a large portion of paid shills that stir things up and give people talking points. Is this an unreasonable assumption considering the topic here?

I think it’s always unreasonable to assume bad faith from other people in the absence of evidence, but I guess I’m just old fashioned that way.

I am not assuming bad faith in individuals, I am assuming a mass influence from paid users.

This entire topic is based on proof of this.

Re: Undercover reporter reveals life in a Polish troll farm

#302

Post by RobertRoberts » Tue, Nov 05, 2019, 2:47 PM UTC

antepodius wrote: post #284

RobertRoberts wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The leader of a mob spouts irrational things, not logic or sound reasoning. The goal is to inspire outrage and offence not present sound solutions. Stir up strife and ignite passion in the masses. This is why they use irrationality as a weapon.

Seems like a poor strategy to me. You can do that sort of thing to rile up the choir, but you have to actually preach to the non-believers. An [x] shill making poor arguments the those on the fence is going to do less good for their employers than a shill making the strongest possible case for [x]. If anything, you'd assume the 'irrational' nuclear shills are actually being paid by natural gas and renewables interest…

I will give you an example from two camps, whom I have family that are both infected by:

Republicans: (fox news) Illegals are taking over America and stealing your jobs!

Democrats: (cnn) Conservatives are hate filled racists who hate equality!

The same thing is happening online because this works with the masses.

Re: Undercover reporter reveals life in a Polish troll farm

#303

Post by RobertRoberts » Tue, Nov 05, 2019, 2:49 PM UTC

dabbledash wrote: post #266

kortilla wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your filter sucks. Pro trolls don’t become irrational. They just defuse or disappear. Only fanboys dig in and defend a subject with senseless arguments once they become emotional. If you’re trying to come up with a filter, decide: do you want to filter out trolls or just people that are fans of topics that hurt your feelings? Right now it just looks like a filter for any conversation with a human you disagree with.

To me it just reads as a filter for people who aren’t worth arguing with on the internet.

Then it has multiple uses?

Re: Undercover reporter reveals life in a Polish troll farm

#304

Post by RobertRoberts » Tue, Nov 05, 2019, 2:51 PM UTC

gdy wrote: post #280

RobertRoberts wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a fair assessment, it's hard to really tell anyone's true motivations. But that is why it's so hard to tell who is a paid shill and who is genuinely invested in their beliefs/position. It's the vastness of comments that I find as evidence of something wrong, not specific posts.

There is vastness of comments about climate change and the need to do something about it. They all must be written by trolls.

Doesn't it seem reasonable to believe that some are from trolls?

Re: Undercover reporter reveals life in a Polish troll farm

#305

Post by hos234 » Tue, Nov 05, 2019, 3:15 PM UTC

criley2 wrote: post #296

hos234 wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't agree. All this activity whether its legitimate volunteers OR trolls has not generated any real sustainable outcomes. Both are just mindlessly trying to hit metrics(like/views/clicks/upvotes etc). And everyone is very satisfied hitting them. But nobody has yet proved in any country, in any part of the world all this mindless metric hitting activity (amplified robotically by the news media) is actually produci…

And I view this as false equivalence. Americans clicking like for American content is fundamentally different than an influence campaign by military intelligence to engage in psyops against us. It's sad and shocking that folks treat a massive attack on the US homeland as "equivalent to Hillary fans posting comments on Reddit". It really goes to show you how America is failing here: if no one will defend the homeland…

The main point is likes/views/clicks don't have to be shown or displaying them can be delayed. It's that simple to reduce random group behavior.

If you don't understand what role they play, or even worse, misunderstand what role they play please read some Social Psychology specifically Conformism and how it is triggered.

The problem is most people who designed the platforms are only now learning about these things and are trying to undo the effects pretending they don't need to make changes to the original design.

Re: Undercover reporter reveals life in a Polish troll farm

#306

Post by ajuc » Tue, Nov 05, 2019, 3:23 PM UTC

Roark66 wrote: post #256

alkonaut wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a party did that in a country where voters respond appropriately to this kind of thing, that political party would be wiped out for a generation. If a party manages to dupe people into thinking their populist cause is important enough to see past the use of troll factories for message control, then that I think says a lot about the health of a democracy. I can imagine this happening in Poland, Hungary or perhaps e…

Yes, it would work in a country that has viable opposition. In Poland we have a choice between: party 1-Used to be in power for 8 years, has lots of huge scandals to its name including closing their eyes to billions of VAT fraud. Unjustified repossessions of homes based on made up documents for tens of thousands of people. Right on stealing of people's retirement funds they said they wouldnt touch. Raising of retirem…

> At the same time they proven not to be corruptible by sorting out the tax system to the effect of increasing the budget almost by half

There is currently huge affair in Ministry of Finances because they were covering tax frauds and even doing them themselves :) https://www.money.pl/podatki/afera-w-resorcie-finansow-szefa...

There was also a corruption scandal with KNF chief Chrzanowski nominated by PIS. https://www.newsweek.pl/szef-knf-oskarzony-o-korupcje-rezygn...

And the tax fraud by chief of controlling agency (NIK) Banaś - also nominated recently by PIS. https://www.tvn24.pl/wiadomosci-z-kraju,3/afera-prezesa-nik-...

Of course nobody cares because social money flow :)

As for the "increase of budget" - mostly it comes from changes in the system already introduced by the previous government but with vacation legis (like electronic reporting for microcompanies - JPK). And of course PIS has the luck to rule during a worldwide economic boom.

Re: Undercover reporter reveals life in a Polish troll farm

#307

Post by gdy » Tue, Nov 05, 2019, 3:25 PM UTC

RobertRoberts wrote: post #304

gdy wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is vastness of comments about climate change and the need to do something about it. They all must be written by trolls.

Doesn't it seem reasonable to believe that some are from trolls?

'Some' is a vague word.

Re: Undercover reporter reveals life in a Polish troll farm

#308

Post by RobertRoberts » Tue, Nov 05, 2019, 3:34 PM UTC

AngryData wrote: post #219

RobertRoberts wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You will see "we need nuclear power because it's the greenest/most renewable/etc... energy" type posts dispersed all through social media almost anywhere there's a discussion about climate change, renewable energy, etc... Even if the original topic was only tangentially related it will get changed. A post with puppy photos can turn into a climate change discussion because "nuclear power is so green". It's so common n…

I mean, some people like myself view nuclear power as the only currently known feasible way of satisfying all our power needs into the future, not just to produce clean electrical energy, but to also fuel carbon sequestration efforts and clean chemical and material synthesis. So anytime climate change, green technology, or anything related to such topics come up it is only natural for nuclear power to eventually pop…

My point was that it wasn't just governments using paid trolls.

It's unfortunate that I mentioned "nuclear" without adding other industries to buffer that one. No one takes issue with me listing the "medical industry" as paying for trolls, not sure why so many care about nuclear over the medical industry here...

Re: Undercover reporter reveals life in a Polish troll farm

#309

Post by philwelch » Tue, Nov 05, 2019, 3:38 PM UTC

RobertRoberts wrote: post #247

philwelch wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I could characterize this entire argument of yours as "drive-by comment bombing", thus backing my (facetious, rhetorical) claim that you are a shill for the photovoltaic industry.

Do you believe only government pays trolls to comment online? And no industry does this?

You’re asking me to prove a negative. That’s not how it works. You’re the one trying to advance a theory.

My counter argument here is simple:

1. You have outlined a pattern of behavior that in your opinion indicates that someone is a paid shill.

2. However you yourself have engaged in the exact pattern of behavior you describe.

3. Therefore we are left with two options:

A: Your theory is correct, and you are a paid shill for renewables.

B: You are not a paid shill, and hence the pattern of behavior you describe is not actually strong evidence of shilling.

Which one is it?

Re: Undercover reporter reveals life in a Polish troll farm

#310

Post by Roark66 » Tue, Nov 05, 2019, 3:55 PM UTC

ajuc wrote: post #306

Roark66 wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it would work in a country that has viable opposition. In Poland we have a choice between: party 1-Used to be in power for 8 years, has lots of huge scandals to its name including closing their eyes to billions of VAT fraud. Unjustified repossessions of homes based on made up documents for tens of thousands of people. Right on stealing of people's retirement funds they said they wouldnt touch. Raising of retirem…

> At the same time they proven not to be corruptible by sorting out the tax system to the effect of increasing the budget almost by half There is currently huge affair in Ministry of Finances because they were covering tax frauds and even doing them themselves :) https://www.money.pl/podatki/afera-w-resorcie-finansow-szefa... There was also a corruption scandal with KNF chief Chrzanowski nominated by PIS. https://www…

I should've written "mostly" not corruptible. Still the level of corruption discovered pales in comparison with the previous guys.

As for the previous guys bringing up microreporting.... please, that is such a worn out excuse. They were in power for 8 years and they actually managed to start serious work on that particular solution half a year before they left office, becuase they knew they absolutely have to. How is that not doing absolute minimum they can get away with? Have you seen the answer the back then minister of finance gave when he was asked a question what did he do when he was informed there are likely billions of VAT refunds beign scammed out of the system? His answer was "I don't remember".

Also tell Germans, China and many other countries about that worldwide economic boom we've been experiencing for last 4 years :-)

I'm no fan of PiS. In fact I voted for their rivals 12 years ago because I did believe their promises of 3x15%, low taxes etc. I still remember many scandals that are forgotten today. For example billions spent on motorways built by the state and then given to companies owned by "friends" for 50 year lease so they could make profits by charging drivers whatever they want for using infrastructure funded by people's own taxes. But my biggest dissapointment with them was not even thievery as it can perhaps be explained that not everyone was a theif etc, but the fact they didn't implement a single one of their promises. They did nothing about rotten to the core bureaucracies of the tax offices, national insurance (ZUS) and tried to privatise the health service through the back door. It is no simple task to resolve this. Even though PiS has very little sucess in those areas, at least they are talking about this and are seen as trying with their "Constitution for Business" that is the only law (other than the actual constitution) that states tax man is supposed to use presumption of innocence not presumtion of guilt as it is done usually and actually treat people fairly in their dealings with the tax offices.

It is true that many people vote for PiS because of new social programs. However, there are many people that vote for them because there is no other viable choice. Sometimes the least bad is the only option.

Anyway, as George Bush famously said: "Full me once, shame on you, full me tw-you can't get fooled again!" :-)