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American business schools are reinventing the MBA

economist.com

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Re: American business schools are reinventing the MBA

#41

Post by hedvig »

leroy_masochist wrote: post #27
mcmoose75 wrote: post #23

This is something I wrote for a previous post on Hackernews re MBAs: I went to one of the top-tier (top 3) MBA programs in the US. The way I've described that value of the top MBA programs is in 3 (roughly equally-weighted) categories: 1) The Education: Getting to discuss business concepts with a group of smart, successful folks for 6-9 hours a day is very helpful. Most of the content, I could get from books/ online…

Fellow top MBA grad here. Strongly agree with the points above, and I'd add: 4) The Recruiting Pipeline: There is a tranche of very desirable jobs out there that are, de facto, restricted to graduates of the top-N (3 or 7 or whatever) MBA programs. Specifically, associate-level roles at consulting firms, i-banks, and management rotational programs at F500 CPG/industrials/FANG. Especially if you're a career changer (I…

> de facto, restricted to graduates of the top-N (3 or 7 or whatever) MBA programs.

Isn't this a problem?

Re: American business schools are reinventing the MBA

#42

Post by mcmoose75 »

hedvig wrote: post #41
leroy_masochist wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fellow top MBA grad here. Strongly agree with the points above, and I'd add: 4) The Recruiting Pipeline: There is a tranche of very desirable jobs out there that are, de facto, restricted to graduates of the top-N (3 or 7 or whatever) MBA programs. Specifically, associate-level roles at consulting firms, i-banks, and management rotational programs at F500 CPG/industrials/FANG. Especially if you're a career changer (I…

> de facto, restricted to graduates of the top-N (3 or 7 or whatever) MBA programs. Isn't this a problem?

A problem for who?

Certainly not for the MBA programs and their graduates.

Re: American business schools are reinventing the MBA

#43

Post by dredmorbius »

mcmoose75 wrote: post #42
hedvig wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> de facto, restricted to graduates of the top-N (3 or 7 or whatever) MBA programs. Isn't this a problem?

A problem for who? Certainly not for the MBA programs and their graduates.

Inverting your response gives the answer: anyone for whom those programmes are not attainable, or from which they're excluded.

Re: American business schools are reinventing the MBA

#44

Post by dredmorbius »

tiffanyh wrote: post #20

People seem to forget that the MBA (originally Master of Science in Commerce) was meant for technical undergraduate majors (like Engineers ) to learn business concepts (and not meant for individuals who have a business undergrad degree). That’s also why the graduate degree was called a Master of Science . When you hear people claim that an “MBA is useless”, it’s typically spoken by people who took business as an unde…

Do you have a reference on this?

Google's Ngram Viewer has ... nil results for "master of science in commerce".

There is a "master of commerce" degree, though that's both contemporary and specific to Commonwealth countries, generally:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_of_Commerce

Hrm ... OK, so Dartmouth offered an MS Commerce in 1900, though it appears that:

1. Wharton had pioneered the concept in 19 years earlier in 18881.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/23702737

2. Harvard introduced an MBA, apparently under that name, in 1908.

doi://10.1016/j.emj.2014.03.006

Seems it's more accurate to say that there was an offered programme as "MS Commerce", but that the degree was never widespread, nor was usage long-lived.

Re: American business schools are reinventing the MBA

#45

Post by dredmorbius »

chongli wrote: post #10

It never made sense to me that one could specialize in business. Every business is radically different from one another, even from competitors. Seems like it would be better to combine a few basic business courses with an advanced degree in a technical subject. Going deep into “business” seems to divorce a person from the reality of any particular company. It gets to the point where they’re in danger of disrupting a…

There are a whole set of disciplines which are effectively systems-management knowledge or training (or to use older terms: science and arts or technology). Business administration, government administration, clerical studies (in the sense of religion), military science. These are domains of large, complex, and idiosyncratic systems -- both amongst disciplines and within them -- in which there are both general and specific sets of knowledge.

There are elements of business administration which are fairly generalised, and those which are specific to given organisations. Keep in mind that in business management as with technology, there's an advantage for large incumbents (think, early 20th century, railroads, chemical industry (especially DuPont), oil, steelmaking, automobile manufacturing, and a few major retail ventures) of stamping a business school with your own process, methods, and models, such that graduates are prepared to enter your own rather than competitors' workforces. An early form of the mindshare battle.

Re: American business schools are reinventing the MBA

#46

Post by tiffanyh »

dredmorbius wrote: post #44
tiffanyh wrote: post #20

People seem to forget that the MBA (originally Master of Science in Commerce) was meant for technical undergraduate majors (like Engineers ) to learn business concepts (and not meant for individuals who have a business undergrad degree). That’s also why the graduate degree was called a Master of Science . When you hear people claim that an “MBA is useless”, it’s typically spoken by people who took business as an unde…

Do you have a reference on this? Google's Ngram Viewer has ... nil results for "master of science in commerce". There is a "master of commerce" degree, though that's both contemporary and specific to Commonwealth countries, generally: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_of_Commerce Hrm ... OK, so Dartmouth offered an MS Commerce in 1900, though it appears that: 1. Wharton had pioneered the concept in 19 years earlie…

Source:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_of_Business_Administr...

Quote “... Master of Science in Commerce, the predecessor to the MBA.”

Re: American business schools are reinventing the MBA

#47

Post by dredmorbius »

tiffanyh wrote: post #46
dredmorbius wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a reference on this? Google's Ngram Viewer has ... nil results for "master of science in commerce". There is a "master of commerce" degree, though that's both contemporary and specific to Commonwealth countries, generally: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_of_Commerce Hrm ... OK, so Dartmouth offered an MS Commerce in 1900, though it appears that: 1. Wharton had pioneered the concept in 19 years earlie…

Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_of_Business_Administr... Quote “... Master of Science in Commerce, the predecessor to the MBA.”

Right, I saw and referenced that. Seems little used and rapidly eclipsed.

Re: American business schools are reinventing the MBA

#48

Post by dredmorbius »

tiffanyh wrote: post #46
dredmorbius wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a reference on this? Google's Ngram Viewer has ... nil results for "master of science in commerce". There is a "master of commerce" degree, though that's both contemporary and specific to Commonwealth countries, generally: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_of_Commerce Hrm ... OK, so Dartmouth offered an MS Commerce in 1900, though it appears that: 1. Wharton had pioneered the concept in 19 years earlie…

Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_of_Business_Administr... Quote “... Master of Science in Commerce, the predecessor to the MBA.”

Also: UVA still have an MsC programme:

https://www.commerce.virginia.edu/ms-commerce

Re: American business schools are reinventing the MBA

#49

Post by dangus »

Junk_Collector wrote: post #24
dangus wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're basing that opinion on interactions with other people that you potentially don't like in the first place, who you're already judging to be inferior to engineers, it's not surprising that you find business knowledge to be useless. You're judging them on their compatibility with your personality, not on the actual knowledge that an MBA or other sort of business degree provides. It's really easy for engineers…

Maybe you should read up on the history of HP. It is largely considered to be the case study in how a company can be ruined when technical management is replaced by "MBA" management.

Interestingly, now that I've looked into it, both of Hewlett Packard Enterprise and HP Inc's current CEOs have computing and engineering degrees. At around a combined $80 billion in revenue in 2019, they must be one of the most lucrative ruined companies I've ever heard of.

Remember, many people who are candidates for an MBA already have a non-business degree, and they're looking to get a fundamental business education.

So a wonderful example of that might be Tim Cook, who has a bachelor's in Industrial Engineering as well as an MBA, and runs the most valuable tech company in the world.

Many people say he's not as good as Steve Jobs (due to the lack of personality cult), but then again, Apple is now making more than double the revenue that it did under Steve Jobs with a revenue mix that is much less dependent on the iPhone. The fastest growing segment is services, which is far more profitable and less risky than hardware (ask Pebble, BlackBerry, or Fitbit about that).

Re: American business schools are reinventing the MBA

#50

Post by dangus »

mdorazio wrote: post #25
dangus wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is there no value in the general knowledge and coursework itself? There are people getting MBAs that started from literally zero business knowledge. Let's say a Computer Science major, who has now worked in the industry writing code for 10 years, wants to move into management. Where would that person get any business knowledge if not for that course work? How will that person relate to the aspects of the business…

There is value in the education, but it’s the exact same education you can get anywhere. Go to a community college and take statistics, economics, accounting, finance, and maybe a couple interest classes and you’ll have roughly the same academic exposure for a tenth of the cost. You don’t need an MBA program to learn business fundamentals.

Compare the curriculum for yourself. An MBA program at a reputable business school has more elective and specialization options, along with a higher level of difficulty. It's not accurate to declare that Community Colleges have no difference in curriculum to a respected graduate business school (and they do not cost 10x more, that is an exaggeration).

Cleveland State University MBA:

https://www.csuohio.edu/business/sites/csuohio.edu.business/...

Cuyahoga Community College Business Administration Degree:

http://catalog.tri-c.edu/course-descriptions/badm/?_ga=2.241...

At Cuyahoga Community College, do you see any electives like Lean Six Sigma, Supply Chain Analytics, or Medical Care Organization?

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