Separating gifted children hasn't led to better achievement • Hacker News Board

Re: Separating gifted children hasn't led to better achievement

#251

Post by spc476 » Tue, Nov 05, 2019, 8:34 AM UTC

txru wrote: post #238

sershe wrote: post #232

I actually wonder what's up with bullying in US schools. I grew up in Moscow, Russia in the 90ies (many people were not well off to say the least) and I was both super nerdy and extremely eh, daring (I would talk back to other kids who were much stronger/more popular than me all the time etc.). Sure, I was not popular, yet I was bullied lightly and almost never physically, mostly by a couple classmates who were just…

In Russia, do you stay together with your class all throughout high school? That is, did you share a core set of classes with a set of about 25 people for four years, with only certain elective classes where you would be split up (like music or art)? If you do, I think that's the difference. Here in America, depending on the size of the school, every year there is no core group you share most classes with. You sign u…

I think it depends upon the school system in the United States [1]. I was with the same group of friends starting with the 5th grade (9-10 years old) through 12th grade (18 years old, last grade before college). It just so happened that not only did all my friends live in the same school district [2] but also in the same school boundary [3]. And the high school I attended was quite large (nearly 2,000 students; 450 in my graduating class alone).

[1] Most school systems in the United States are vary by county to county. There's some oversight at the state and federal levels, but the higher up the government, the less oversight, generally speaking.

[2] I think it was the 3rd largest in the country. Large enough to be split administratively into three sub-districts.

[3] I was supposed to attend a different high school from my friends because of where I lived at the time, but the boundaries for high school shifted and I ended up attending the same high school as the rest of my friends. Strange now that I think about it, because of the three high schools in the area, it was the furthest one.

Re: Separating gifted children hasn't led to better achievement

#252

Post by blurbleblurble » Tue, Nov 05, 2019, 8:34 AM UTC

The arrogance and ignorance in some of these comments is astounding

Re: Separating gifted children hasn't led to better achievement

#253

Post by ossworkerrights » Tue, Nov 05, 2019, 8:36 AM UTC

scarejunba wrote: post #243

Damn, America is so rich it just invents problems. When I was a child, you worked hard in school or your life was going to suck. By American standards, your life already sucked because you defecated in the fields. So you did everything in your capacity to not keep it that way. I'm in America now. Did it the hard way. It wasn't as easy as showing up to class and having the choice of working hard to apply to some of th…

This is pretty racist to be honest. America took you out from a country where people defecate in the fields, yet you praise the resilience performing that action taught you. Why didnt you just stay there and continue doing it, instead of living among these self entitled brats that had given you a better life? Is it because you wanted to defecate on keyboards instead and produce the crapwate that everyone complaints about?

Re: Separating gifted children hasn't led to better achievement

#254

Post by jcims » Tue, Nov 05, 2019, 8:42 AM UTC

onion2k wrote: post #227

thatfrenchguy wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Prior to Stuy, I was bullied like crazy, beaten, and it was very difficult to try and fit in with many of the others around me who, frankly, just didn't give a fuck. It really sucked Can't we fix bullying in the first place ?

Lots of child psychologists and teachers believe that parental involvement is key to stopping a child becoming a bully (eg parents actively engaging with their kids welfare) and the most common thing that stops parents being involved in bringing up their kids is poverty. Trying to fix poverty is weirdly controversial.

Is there some kind of consensus that bullies are predominately poor? Even if thats true on a quantitative basis, the bullies that count are the ones with social standing.

Re: Separating gifted children hasn't led to better achievement

#255

Post by varjag » Tue, Nov 05, 2019, 8:50 AM UTC

yters wrote: post #192

eloff wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But would bring other problems. The cure is likely worse than the disease.

Most of history? I'd argue three Rs is the basics everyone needs, and then they can find their own way.

Most of history was pretty bad.

Re: Separating gifted children hasn't led to better achievement

#256

Post by abcpassword » Tue, Nov 05, 2019, 8:59 AM UTC

rtpg wrote: post #193

BurningFrog wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody needs to be sacrificed! The right way to do this is obviously that everyone gets an education adapted to their needs and talents! That means special programs for the "gifted" as well as for the "not much with the book learning" kids. A "one size fits all" education will always be a compromise that's maybe optimal for the median kid.

A very good example of "win-win" scenarios that aren't just "isolate the smart kids" are classes built around group work and projects. Group work means that more successful groups can probably get pretty far on their own without needing much teacher intervention, freeing teacher resources for less successful groups. Group work also means students can help each other, and the "teaching" students can get experience in…

The low achievers don’t sit quietly. They scream. They commit assaults. They loudly tell jokes and laugh in the room while watching YouTube videos.

They’re not the same students. A single bad apple poisons a classroom.

Re: Separating gifted children hasn't led to better achievement

#257

Post by vintermann » Tue, Nov 05, 2019, 9:08 AM UTC

Lots of people sharing stories about how fortunate they were to be saved from bullying and chaos.

I can relate, since I switched schools myself to get away from bullying (though to a Waldorf school rather than any kind of gifted program). But have you stopped to think, if this study is correct, then some of the following seems like they must be true:

* you would actually have done as well if you stayed

* you would have done worse if you stayed, but others who went into gifted programs would have done better if they didn't, making up for it

* people like you are just too rare to make a difference in the statistics.

My older brother wasn't actively bullied, but was in an infamously dysfunctional class. He just filtered them out somehow, never changed school, and did far better than me academically in the end. So maybe an anecdotal data point for the first option.

There are other things besides achievement. I can certainly see an argument for separating kids who actively hurt other kids, whether it matters for achievement or not. But it seems giving high scoring kids extra stimulating environments isn't all it's cracked up to be (If the study can be believed).

Re: Separating gifted children hasn't led to better achievement

#258

Post by trempdig » Tue, Nov 05, 2019, 9:08 AM UTC

The author of this article is an academic fraud who makes unsubstantiated claims in everything she does. Jo Boaler has an agenda without the data to support it, and her lies are used to support structural changes to school programs. Instead of responding to critics with facts and information, she just calls everyone who criticizes her a “bully”.

https://www.nonpartisaneducation.org/Review/Essays/v8n5.htm

Re: Separating gifted children hasn't led to better achievement

#259

Post by scarejunba » Tue, Nov 05, 2019, 9:15 AM UTC

ossworkerrights wrote: post #253

scarejunba wrote: post #243

Damn, America is so rich it just invents problems. When I was a child, you worked hard in school or your life was going to suck. By American standards, your life already sucked because you defecated in the fields. So you did everything in your capacity to not keep it that way. I'm in America now. Did it the hard way. It wasn't as easy as showing up to class and having the choice of working hard to apply to some of th…

This is pretty racist to be honest. America took you out from a country where people defecate in the fields, yet you praise the resilience performing that action taught you. Why didnt you just stay there and continue doing it, instead of living among these self entitled brats that had given you a better life? Is it because you wanted to defecate on keyboards instead and produce the crapwate that everyone complaints a…

Listen, you can react like this (trying to provoke me) or you can choose to better yourself. Every second is an opportunity. Good luck.

Re: Separating gifted children hasn't led to better achievement

#260

Post by knowingathing » Tue, Nov 05, 2019, 9:18 AM UTC

trempdig wrote: post #258

The author of this article is an academic fraud who makes unsubstantiated claims in everything she does. Jo Boaler has an agenda without the data to support it, and her lies are used to support structural changes to school programs. Instead of responding to critics with facts and information, she just calls everyone who criticizes her a “bully”. https://www.nonpartisaneducation.org/Review/Essays/v8n5.htm

what are your thoughts on this? https://web.stanford.edu/~joboaler/Jo-Boaler-reveals-attacks...