Time for Einstein Gravity Probe C. Einstein suggested we could directly measure the curvature of the universe by comparing distances between probes located at angles to each other. They would need to be pretty far apart from each other for this to work, but they can be very small: just an RTG and an antenna. So hopeful light enough to build up an enormous velocity.
What Shape Is the Universe, Closed or Flat?
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Re: What Shape Is the Universe, Closed or Flat?
#22Time for Einstein Gravity Probe C. Einstein suggested we could directly measure the curvature of the universe by comparing distances between probes located at angles to each other. They would need to be pretty far apart from each other for this to work, but they can be very small: just an RTG and an antenna. So hopeful light enough to build up an enormous velocity.
Yeah, like light-years apart. Many light-years, too.
Re: What Shape Is the Universe, Closed or Flat?
#23Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not remotely feasible. The overall curvature of the universe is swamped by local inhomogeneities until you get to scales that are much larger than galaxies. So you'd only be measuring the curvature due to nearby matter unless you had proves traveling at relativistic speeds and were willing to wait millions of years.
If you know mass distribution between and around probes, could you account for it? or is it a case where we can only know the mass distribution by observing the curvature?
Re: What Shape Is the Universe, Closed or Flat?
#24Earlier quoted context omitted.
Fair enough, but better CMB data will resolve the issue at some point. It's not that we need a totally new way of measuring the space curvature.
CMB data is based on modeling and simulation. Historically that type of science has never been accurate because there are always assumptions baked into the model - but what if the assumptions are wrong? The CMB results assume dark matter and dark energy are real, it assumes a specific type of big bang theory. But none of those things have direct evidence. We absolutely do need direct measurement of this. And this is…
The CMB is the evidence for a hot big bang (note, this is not the same as a singularity) although of course observational cosmologists want to trace back from the first starlight to the CMB and have various plans to do so. Surprises in that "dark age" are more than welcome because they are bound to reveal things about low-density momentum-energy.
> assume dark matter and dark energy are real
Nobody has put together a self-consistent physical cosmology model that reasonably matches actual observations of the shape, scatter, and shift of galaxies across our sky, without the theory containing some additional nonluminous tension and pressure terms that take effect earlier than the surface of last scattering and persist to the present day. The self-consistency problems are expected to blow apart consistency with observation. (Details in e.g. Famey & McGaugh 2011 §9).
The need for a tension term to match observations arose even in 1917 [1], and the more detailed 1929 Hubble observations supported the idea of a constant tension independent of visible sources; that is what modern observations still support. The need for an additional pressure term became obvious from the 1960s Rubin observations; the term was pretty simple initially and that simplicity was well-supported through the 1980s and 1990s. One could through that period support theories wherein the pressure term appeared everywhere luminous sources appeared in some straightforward function (e.g. Milgrom 1983). Modern observations have several advantages in the observable details, and those support a rather more complicated interplay between luminous sources and the pressure term, particularly at scales much larger than kiloparsecs.
If you can find a theoretical mechanism that produces the observed small anisotropies of the CMB without introducing some tension and pressure acting on an almost entirely homogeneous photon gas with an almost perfect (albeit highly redshifted) blackbody spectrum, well, that'd be amazing. It should of course also be compatible with the actual observations of less-highly-redshifted molecular gas spectra (and the Lyman-alpha forest), and how those lense around rather than through radio-clumpy foreground galaxy clusters.
There are a lot of galaxies in the sky, so many that we've discovered that their shapes are pretty regular across an enormous redshift-range. That's additional observational evidence for the spatial flatness of the universe. Even fairly gentle spatial curvature would distort the shapes of face-on spirals at high redshifts, and that is not what we see.
Even the Hubble Ultra Deep Field image imposes pretty significant constraints. It's littered with galaxies and with goodies like the Gravitational Lens Galaxy Cluster CL0024+1654, which have been imaged in various wavelengths by both ground and space telescopes.
The match between the small anisotropies in the CMB and galaxies at increasing redshift strongly ties the hands of speculative theorists. Those are the people who do the "modelling and simulation". They are stuck having to match actual observation, assuming their goal is to theorize about the single example we inhabit. Bolshoi and MultiDark had to match Sloan, not the other way around.
> bad type of modelling
Whose word are you taking for this?
> we only have a single example. In contrast to ... weather .. where we can keep ... comparing to the real world
As said at the top, we've kept comparing the scatter and shape of galaxies and the scatter and shape of fluctuations in the CMB. How is dealing with evidence questioning the standard value of the H_0 parameter not "refining the model"?
Also, today we only have a single example of an Earthlike planet's weather data. And until the late 1960s at the earliest we had weather data of any sort for only one planet. So was the numerical weather modelling work done in the 1950s (e.g. by Charney, von Neumann et al. on ENIAC) also "an especially bad type of modelling"?
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[1] E Schrödinger, “Über ein Lösungssystem der allgemein kovarianten Gravitationsgleichungen”, Physikalische Zeitschrift,19, 20-22 (1918) cf. https://arxiv.org/abs/1211.6338
Re: What Shape Is the Universe, Closed or Flat?
#25I read this more than 20 years ago, and I'm no cosmologist, so forgive me if I butchered that summary.
Re: What Shape Is the Universe, Closed or Flat?
#26I read a book a long time ago (Poetry of the Universe: A Mathematical Exploration of the Cosmos, by Robert Osserman) about the shape of the universe. In it he talks about quasars. If you observe 2 of them in opposite directions, each 13 billions light years from earth, then they must be 26 billion light years from each other. But the universe is only a little less than 14 billion years old so how can this be? He argu…
If you have a baloon with a band attached to two opposite points on it's surface and blow the ballon, the distance between points (the band length) on the surface will change 2 times as the distance from the middle. Moreover, if you place some markers on the band the distance between them will also strech. You get that effect in plain Euclidean 3d space. It's not that surprising even for nice orthogonal geometry.
Re: What Shape Is the Universe, Closed or Flat?
#27If I remember right, there was some analogy likening us to ants crawling on the surface of the Earth, but I could be conflating it with something else.