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Separating gifted children hasn't led to better achievement

hechingerreport.org

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Re: Separating gifted children hasn't led to better achievement

#221

Post by mynegation »

hackerrenews wrote: post #9

I was fourth picked for g&t. First and second pick ended up being quite successful, as did the third picked. One has a high up, prestigious position at Amazon and the other retired from Microsoft wealthy. Me, I smoke weed and that’s about the only thing I’ve really done consistently since high school.. more consistently than music, and programming, even. Frankly, I wish I had been better separated from the other kids…

I started school in Russia in 80s. Back then there were no magnet schools in my small home town but now I realize that the ministry of education came up with a different solution to a bullying problem: a dedicated school for “special needs” children. I do not remember anyone being sent there for bad marks but repeated behavioral offenses would get you there. All the potential bullies were scared shitless to be sent there. It is one thing to be a bully and the strongest guy in the class and totally different to be in the class full of people exactly like you.

Re: Separating gifted children hasn't led to better achievement

#222

Post by artificialLimbs »

kick wrote: post #52
nostrademons wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a life story similar to you up through middle-school - second pick for G&T, bullied heavily, repeated physical abuse from peers, ended up hanging out with losers who were into drugs both in middle & high school. After that it diverges though - I switched to a charter school for high school, went to a top liberal arts college, then worked at a couple startups and had a pretty prestigious position at Google. I'v…

I'm currently not in a position to be able to look up this stuff (making dinner), but Duke has done a lot of research on this stuff under their TIP program that basically everyone in this thread might be interested in: it validates your experiences in numbers as the default for gifted children/adolescents/teenagers when not helped structurally, and provides a reasonable amount of information and resources to try and…

"There's nothing ot really help people who've already experienced it." Exposure therapy. No, don't go trying to get into situations where you get bullied. Re-live your worst experiences in your head over and over again until it gets boring. Make sure you're in a comfortable setting and have some comfort devices nearby (food, a beer, family, etc...) Proven extremely effective in many psychological practices.

Re: Separating gifted children hasn't led to better achievement

#223

Post by skissane »

rtpg wrote: post #193
BurningFrog wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody needs to be sacrificed! The right way to do this is obviously that everyone gets an education adapted to their needs and talents! That means special programs for the "gifted" as well as for the "not much with the book learning" kids. A "one size fits all" education will always be a compromise that's maybe optimal for the median kid.

A very good example of "win-win" scenarios that aren't just "isolate the smart kids" are classes built around group work and projects. Group work means that more successful groups can probably get pretty far on their own without needing much teacher intervention, freeing teacher resources for less successful groups. Group work also means students can help each other, and the "teaching" students can get experience in…

> Group work means that more successful groups

Very often, they try to "mix" the groups up and make each group a mix of ability. The inevitable result of that, is that the high ability students often feel like they have no choice but to do all the work. Do you want to get marked down because you include your peers' sub-standard work in the end product, or do you just replace it with higher standard work of your own?

Re: Separating gifted children hasn't led to better achievement

#224

Post by raxxorrax »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #218
koolba wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solution is not to pull out a handful of high performers, it’s to kick out the even smaller number of disrupters.

I don’t think the number of those disrupters is as small as you think it is. It really depends on the school though, for me it was much higher for 7th-10th grade in Vicksburg MS than it was for 11th-12th grade in Bothell WA (a much richer school district).

Disruptive kids can very well be gifted and are bored by school. Doesn't mean every disruptive kid is a genius in hiding of course.

Re: Separating gifted children hasn't led to better achievement

#225

Post by jl2718 »

underpand wrote: post #97

The SF algebra change is NOT a success. Most of the stats are cherrypicked and misleading. > For instance, after San Francisco Unified de-tracked math, the proportion of students failing algebra fell from 40 percent to 8 percent and the proportion of students taking advanced classes rose to a third, the highest percentage in district history. This compares the number of 8th graders who failed Algebra 1 before the cha…

That is a shocking level of journalistic mendacity, absolutely intent to decieve. It begs the question: What is the author trying to accomplish, and why?

So far, the “equality of outcomes” crusade seems to have an abysmal record with the truth. It’s become a lampoon of legitimate socio-economic problems.

Re: Separating gifted children hasn't led to better achievement

#226

Post by skissane »

mancerayder wrote: post #49

This difference between tracked and untracked math experiences was illuminated recently in a survey we gave to San Francisco ninth-graders and ninth-graders across another large district, where all students are in tracked groups. The San Francisco students were significantly more positive about both mathematics and their own potential. Importantly, the San Francisco students were also significantly more likely than s…

If our children were going to a secondary school without so-called "tracked math classes", we'd pull them out and send them to another school that had them. (Assuming of course that we could afford to do so, which I'm sure we personally would be able to, but I acknowledge not all parents are as fortunate.)

Re: Separating gifted children hasn't led to better achievement

#227

Post by onion2k »

thatfrenchguy wrote: post #143
borski wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amen to this. I was separated (went to Stuyvesant HS in NYC) and it made a world of difference for me, as compared to JHS or elementary school. Prior to Stuy, I was bullied like crazy, beaten, and it was very difficult to try and fit in with many of the others around me who, frankly, just didn't give a fuck . It really sucked. Stuy was a different world, and the first time in my life I felt the opportunity to actuall…

> Prior to Stuy, I was bullied like crazy, beaten, and it was very difficult to try and fit in with many of the others around me who, frankly, just didn't give a fuck. It really sucked Can't we fix bullying in the first place ?

Lots of child psychologists and teachers believe that parental involvement is key to stopping a child becoming a bully (eg parents actively engaging with their kids welfare) and the most common thing that stops parents being involved in bringing up their kids is poverty. Trying to fix poverty is weirdly controversial.

Re: Separating gifted children hasn't led to better achievement

#228

Post by empthought »

eloff wrote: post #204
yters wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of history? I'd argue three Rs is the basics everyone needs, and then they can find their own way.

If you look at the opportunities and statistics for high school dropouts, it makes a compelling case to the contrary. And I argue this as an education system skeptic and college dropout myself.

Presumably most people who “find their own way” would not drop out of high school, and their experience would be better — because there would be no one present who was only attending because the law mandates that they do so.

Re: Separating gifted children hasn't led to better achievement

#229

Post by empthought »

ip26 wrote: post #184
empthought wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If mandatory school attendance were repealed, it would work itself quite quickly.

All well and good, but those people still get to vote.

There is no difference between voters who attended school only because they were forced to, and hypothetical voters who weren’t forced to attend school.

Re: Separating gifted children hasn't led to better achievement

#230

Post by jancsika »

hackerrenews wrote: post #9

I was fourth picked for g&t. First and second pick ended up being quite successful, as did the third picked. One has a high up, prestigious position at Amazon and the other retired from Microsoft wealthy. Me, I smoke weed and that’s about the only thing I’ve really done consistently since high school.. more consistently than music, and programming, even. Frankly, I wish I had been better separated from the other kids…

> Separating gifted children for accelerated learning is great. Ignoring social development by blindly sticking all kids together in unstructured environments where bullying and physical abuse is allowed to persist will override any hope for some kids.

I had no idea that calls to public_policy return type bool.

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