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Separating gifted children hasn't led to better achievement

hechingerreport.org

211–220 of 389 posts

Re: Separating gifted children hasn't led to better achievement

#211

I was fourth picked for g&t. First and second pick ended up being quite successful, as did the third picked. One has a high up, prestigious position at Amazon and the other retired from Microsoft wealthy. Me, I smoke weed and that’s about the only thing I’ve really done consistently since high school.. more consistently than music, and programming, even. Frankly, I wish I had been better separated from the other kids…

I think the tenor of what you're trying to express is that smart kids shouldn't be abused for being smart. Not a controversial opinion.

Making them unnecessarily cut off from everyone else who isn't quite as "gifted" is worse, in a way. How is that kid going to get out of his/her bubble?

Re: Separating gifted children hasn't led to better achievement

#212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would it have to be a one-time selection? Put kids in a class based on their current level of academic performance. If you're doing better than the other kids in your class then you go to the more advanced class.

Sounds good, but once you’re in the dumb caste you tend to stay.

It's possible the reason for that is that the original assessment was well-calibrated. But if you want to see more opportunities for misidentified students to prove their worth then why not argue for that instead of making every class the dumb class?

Re: Separating gifted children hasn't led to better achievement

#213
The problem with advanced placement / gt / etc is that just like the broader educational system it assumes everyone learns the same just a lot faster. In my own experience, and I get it, this is purely anecdotal: the three smartest people I know, and by smart I mean like off the charts genius level, all were recognized early as being beyond what even gt was going to do for them. They were all taken aside and basically told: you have Carte Blanche to do Whatever you want, go to the library and learn what interests you. Now, I ask you this: why should that gift only be afforded to kids who are so off the charts the teachers don’t know what else to do with them? Why not focus on getting kids the structure and discipline and desire to learn that they can go seek the same path if they want to do it?

Re: Separating gifted children hasn't led to better achievement

#214
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I truly don't know how to significantly improve the school experience for most kids short of just kicking out (or isolating) the bottom few percent, in terms of disruptiveness, violence, and GAF-ness, certainly by 6th or 7th grade, if not earlier. Which seems like a shitty solution and is legally untenable for a bunch of reasons I'm sure, but they're responsible for a large part of why school sucks so much and is so…

I think there's an argument to be made that the disruptive kids need special attention just as much as the gifted students, albeit of a different kind. they don't seem to benefit from the standard "just pretend they're learning" approach.

They do need special attention. The problem is that the average teacher is simply not equipped to deal with their level of need. Kids at the very bottom of the performance distribution tend to have major issues at home, mental health issues, and may even have personality disorders in the dark triad. These kids need serious help from experts. That's too expensive though, so they aren't going to get it and everyone who has to interact with them ends up paying the price.

Re: Separating gifted children hasn't led to better achievement

#215
post #33

I was fourth picked for g&t. First and second pick ended up being quite successful, as did the third picked. One has a high up, prestigious position at Amazon and the other retired from Microsoft wealthy. Me, I smoke weed and that’s about the only thing I’ve really done consistently since high school.. more consistently than music, and programming, even. Frankly, I wish I had been better separated from the other kids…

Amen to this. I was separated (went to Stuyvesant HS in NYC) and it made a world of difference for me, as compared to JHS or elementary school. Prior to Stuy, I was bullied like crazy, beaten, and it was very difficult to try and fit in with many of the others around me who, frankly, just didn't give a fuck . It really sucked. Stuy was a different world, and the first time in my life I felt the opportunity to actuall…

> Prior to Stuy, I was bullied like crazy, beaten, and it was very difficult to try and fit in with many of the others around me who, frankly, just didn't give a fuck. It really sucked.

I want to echo this. I too was bullied like crazy (I was ridiculed/outcast for being "gay", in the homosexual sense, except I was completely straight. But that doesn't particularly matter to middle-schoolers. I was ridiculed for the clothing I wore (it fit funny as I grew in spurts) and was physically beat, too.)

Our local schools had some advanced schools ("tracked", as the article calls it); I applied. In my system, if you met the entrance requirements, your fate was tossed into a lottery. For one particular school, ~100 students were accepted from ~600 applicants. I was 500th on the waitlist for that school. (It was the worst of several.) I spent an extra year in my assigned school because of that, and it was hell. It was a gift from God when I got out of there the next year. (I got off one of the wait lists!)

It took ten years to really work through most of the resulting depression and confidence issues my time at my assigned school left me with. I have no idea if I would have succeeded if not for "tracked" education.

The author is wrong on several points:

> Eight Bay Area school districts found similar results when they de-tracked middle-school mathematics and provided professional development to teachers.

Perhaps it was the professional development, and not the de-tracking that led to better results? The link doesn't seem to support the author's conclusion, either, and largely seems to credit the professional development.

> [other remarked about "fixed-ability"] We are at a point where the negative impacts of fixed-ability thinking are undeniable.

I have never heard of "fixed-ability", and at least where I was, it was never the argument for separating out achieving students. The arguments was not that the lower-performing students weren't capable¹ of performing, it just simply that if you taught at their level, you were wasting the potential and the time of the students who were outperforming their peers, as you would have to teach significantly below their ability, which is inevitable when you cater to the lowest common denominator.

> When students, instead, embrace the knowledge that there are no limits to their learning, outcomes improve. When students develop a “limitless perspective” positive changes go through their lives,

And the bullies I was schooled along side with joined hands with the bullied and sang kumbaya. (/s) This is absurd.

> International studies show that the United States is one of the most tracked education systems in the world, but tracking hasn’t led to high achievement for the country.

Tracking is a symptom of people trying to escape the poor baseline education; it is not the cause of the poor baseline education, and eliminating it will not improve that.

> Instead, it has brought about stark racial divisions in opportunity and achievement.

Ah, now it's racist to want to receive an at level education? This argument was bantered around in my school system, and it never made any sense. Some combination of socio-economic standing and what generation you were mattered a whole lot more. (Those with good socioeconomic standing either moved out of system, or enrolled in private schools. First-generation kids — with the exception of the Hispanic community for whatever reasons — seemed to do considerably for whatever reasons. Our "tracked" schools were overrepresented in Asian and (I believe, but these demographics aren't measured) first-generation African-Americans, and under-represented in Hispanic and all other African Americans … and it only ever seemed to me that it was that last one that bothered people.

> Now is the time to invest in the teacher professional development that allows this to happen.

Sure, but this is orthogonal to eliminating tracked education. Add in that every government I've seen seems awfully reluctant to pay the teachers. (And you are paying them for the time they'll need to do this, right?)

> For when we tell students they can reach the sky, and provide them with opportunities to do so, amazing things happen.

This was as patronizing then as it is now.

I can't understand why someone is so eager to shut down the only thing that gave me a future.

¹many of them lacked discipline. They were poorly behaved children, and it's a miracle the teachers wanted to continue to be there at all, IMO. Many of them were clearly not getting discipline taught at home … and teachers are forbidden nowadays from imposing any meaningful discipline themselves.

> The other corollary to this, of course, is that on the last day of JHS, after having held my reactions entirely for nearly a decade, and just taking the beatings...I finally lost it. It was really bad, and on the last day of JHS I went absolutely apeshit on this kid for pushing me around and punching me, after I gave him three warnings. Easily one of the top 3 least proud moments of my life. That could have been avoided, too, though you could make an argument a large part of that was also due to it being taboo to actually talk to someone about your feelings in the 90s. I never wanted to fight back because I was afraid of hurting them (I had been training in martial arts for like 7-8 years) and because I didn't want to get in trouble. It was dumb.

On one of my final days prior to transferring out, I almost lost it on another kid. I think my body language threatened violence, and I think it scared him a bit because I'd never done that. We both still ended up getting dragged to the principal's office, though as I remember I wasn't punished. Today, I regret not actually exacting violence on him. Which runs incredibly contrary to most of what I think my own morals are. But do you just keep trying to fend off the incoming violence forever, or at some point take a stand that might actually make a difference? (It wouldn't be until much later that I read Ender's Game, which argues this very point.) (Or who knows, his friends might have come rushing to his aid, and it would not have been a fair fight at that point.) It was dumb.

Re: Separating gifted children hasn't led to better achievement

#216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a relatively easy high school experience compared to many—almost no physical bullying, very little bullying otherwise, ran with a couple friend groups outside my almost-the-nerdiest-bunch-but-not-quite primary group that had a kind of light-alternative "cool" factor, school was decent and supportive by local standards at least, happened to pick up weight lifting in junior high and stuck with it so got pretty da…

Man, your highschool experience sounds totally different than mine. Highschool wasn't always great, but it was mostly ok and I had a lot of good times. I wasn't popular, but had good friends. I am also a middle aged guy with a couple of kids, and I think raising children is way more stressful than highschool ever was.

There's more worry with kids, in my experience, by a long shot. More responsibility. Less crushing grind (though lots, to be clear). And it's better motivated than high school, that having a disorienting and disheartening mix of deadly seriousness (so you're meant to believe, anyway) and complete make-believe with the lines always shifting and blurring. That helps make the trade-offs of having kids far less oppressive than high school, I think.

Re: Separating gifted children hasn't led to better achievement

#217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Care to share what your response is? I am not sure I know what the traditional American response is?

Look at how the US K-12 education system works in practice. This is probably a reasonable enough guide to what the populace want because of democracy. You see a system designed and run for the pretty average children with substantial investment in bringing up those who are academically behind, whether or not there’s any prospect of them becoming average or exceeding it. You see basically nothing spent on the most aca…

Miraca Gross, writing about Austrialia, says this:

"Two studies a decade apart (Start, John, and Strange, 1975; Start, 1985) surveyed every Australian tertiary institution which offered teacher education programmes. Each was contacted with a questionnaire relating to their teacher education offerings in four areas: mentally, physically, or emotionally handicapped children, migrant children, socio-economically deprived children, and gifted and talented children.

The situation regarding teacher preparation in gifted education was twice as positive in the mid-1980s as it had been in the mid-1970s. Nevertheless, in 1984, for every hour on teaching the gifted, student teachers had been exposed to 18 to 24 hours on teaching the disadvantaged. Furthermore, sessions on gifted education usually comprised one single-hour lecture in a general course, or elective units of three to six lectures. Whereas every institution had at least one compulsory unit or course on one or other form of disadvantage, no institution in Australia had a compulsory unit on gifted. One college replied to the survey saying that its students could consider the intellectually able as one topic in a comprehensive course, and approximately one lecture would be devoted to the area. The name of the course was "Controversies in Education" (Start, 1985)."

She says it's less bad in the United States—as of 1993. The figure you give isn't encouraging, though.

Re: Separating gifted children hasn't led to better achievement

#218
post #112
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amen to this. I was separated (went to Stuyvesant HS in NYC) and it made a world of difference for me, as compared to JHS or elementary school. Prior to Stuy, I was bullied like crazy, beaten, and it was very difficult to try and fit in with many of the others around me who, frankly, just didn't give a fuck . It really sucked. Stuy was a different world, and the first time in my life I felt the opportunity to actuall…

The solution is not to pull out a handful of high performers, it’s to kick out the even smaller number of disrupters.

I don’t think the number of those disrupters is as small as you think it is. It really depends on the school though, for me it was much higher for 7th-10th grade in Vicksburg MS than it was for 11th-12th grade in Bothell WA (a much richer school district).

Re: Separating gifted children hasn't led to better achievement

#219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would it have to be a one-time selection? Put kids in a class based on their current level of academic performance. If you're doing better than the other kids in your class then you go to the more advanced class.

Sounds good, but once you’re in the dumb caste you tend to stay.

I wouldn’t call community college “dumb caste”. The people there are often ready to move upwards (whatever this means for them)
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