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Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

gitlab.com

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Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#521

Post by jplayer01 »

d1ffuz0r wrote: post #181
jplayer01 wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, give any quote from the link or elsewhere that in any way shows the reasoning for this consideration is based on how much they don’t like Chinese people or how inferior they are as a race. People keep throwing around the racist label even when it’s absolutely clear that it’s not about race. It’s about the Chinese and Russian governments and how they operate. These are legitimate informational/operational security…

>It’s about the Chinese and Russian governments and how they operate Have you ever thought that Russian government consists of Russian people? Same with Chinese

Yes, so? Nobody is concerned about the Chinese because they’re Chinese. Unless the CCP adopts principles like freedom of speech or other values that are foundational to Western countries, the CCP is forever going to be at odds with us. As long as they oppress their population and minorities and expand their influence on neighboring countries in undemocratic ways, and seek to extend that influence to the West, there’s a conflict. And the conflict isn’t race. It’s values. This tolerating undemocratic behavior because it might be intolerant only allows authoritarian regimes like the CCP to continue their spread.

It’s hilarious and depressing to see people using their freedom of speech to defend China, a place that suppresses any and all criticism in absurdly draconian ways.

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#522

Post by fastball »

em-bee wrote: post #462
fastball wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that those 250 countries all have different legislation and cultures. The only concern is not "we don't want the Chinese government to have access to user data". That's the only concern for Gitlab (well that and not violating US laws in regards to who they can do business with), but it is not as simple for many other companies. Going from a whitelist to a blacklist is hard because you need to either indi…

i am not sure we are getting anywhere with this argument. i don't really see the point. when a list has a fixed number of possible entries, then the difference between whitelist and blacklist is purely academic. the result is exactly the same.

You seem to be talking about reciprocal lists (blacklist of 3 -> whitelist of 247, whitelist of 10 -> blacklist of 240, etc), which is not what OC was talking about. OC was specifically talking about going from a "small whitelist" to a "small blacklist". Not a "large whitelist to a small blacklist" and certainly not anything the other way around.

Whitelist with 3 countries: I have vetted three countries, and know my employees can operate in those countries legally without issues.

Blacklist with 3 countries: I either need to vet 247 countries to ensure my employees can operate there legally, or I am just assuming that those 247 countries are fine without actually doing the due diligence.

Again, going from a blacklist of 3 countries to a whitelist of 247 countries is obviously not an issue. You're operating on the same data. The issue is going from a whitelist of say 3 countries and then not going to a reciprocal blacklist of 247 countries, but a much smaller blacklist of 3. This is what Gitlab has effectively done in OC's estimation. That either means you vetted those 244 extra countries that are now on your "whitelist", or you're making a lot of assumptions.

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#523

Post by dredmorbius »

zonidjan wrote: post #65
dredmorbius wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And on my own re-read: "Current team members are prevented from moving to these countries and remaining in a role that prohibits it." That would seem to apply to current employees in Russia / China who are in roles covered by the block. Which is kind of A Big Deal.

No? It would seem to apply to current employees who move to Russia/China who are in roles covered by the block. i.e. they would have the choice of moving and changing roles/quitting, or staying.

Depends on whether you read that as:

X: "Current team members"

A: "moving to these countries"

B: "remaining in a role that prohibits it"

X are prevented from BOTH A AND B.

(X may do neither A NOR B)

Or:

X are prevented from (A AND B).

Whether or not remaining in one of these countries and MOVING to a role that prohibits it is included in the prohibition is unclear.

Someone's future transfer may hinge on that.

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#524

Post by akfanta »

elefanten wrote: post #485
whoevercares wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assuming you aren’t native Chinese or don’t have lots of friends in China, you don’t seem to understand what the parent said about nationalism rises. No China’s nationalism WAS NOT this high before, (the parade etc) you saw before is organized and it’s actually quite small considering the scale of China. Common people were normally cynical and only act patriotic at occasions where they really have to. Things are frea…

Is there debate about this on the Chinese net? I'm curious because I don't know, but I imagine having a debate where people can genuinely criticize China would be difficult to conduct in the face of censorship and legal risk. I ask because my experience across the Western net has been seeing lots of debate. This thread is a good example. I only see Chinese netizens appear in huge angry voting brigades, spamming threa…

> I only see Chinese netizens appear in huge angry voting brigades, spamming threads with proclamations, denunciations and flimsy claims.

You will never see it anywhere on the internet, because from the very beginning your decision has been made. Anything you read will be morphed according to your belief. Anyone pro China on this site is immediately either labeled as brainwashed retards or paid shill. That's why there are no discussions, it's just your echo chamber.

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#525

Post by akfanta »

drak0n1c wrote: post #507
DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They make it hell for U.S companies to do business there. That's not evidenced by the massive presence of US companies in China. American companies do vastly more business in China than vice versa. Whenever I see these sorts of claims, I ask what specific restrictions or hurdles are being discussed.

I tried to buy my $2.50 Old Spice deodorant in Shanghai. The price tag when translated to dollars was over $8. If you are ever in China, go into a grocery store and look at the aisles. The main reason why American products are priced at 200%-300% the competition is because of tariffs. Tariffs designed to make ordinary middle class American products only affordable by rich elites. It's a very effective cap on market s…

> I tried to buy my $2.50 Old Spice deodorant in Shanghai. The price tag when translated to dollars was over $8.

This particular case is likely because the usage of deodorant is not a thing in China. The majority of East Asia doesn't have the body odor issue. It's a gene thing.

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#526

Post by sytse »

FragenAntworten wrote: post #510
sytse wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks! We try to be transparent by default and even when it is difficult. I think the OP is a good example of something that is hard to be transparent about because the decision isn't obvious and it takes discussion to come to the best conclusion.

If you don't mind me asking, why is this conversation open to comments from non-employees? Having discussions be publicly viewable seems valuable, but letting anyone at all participate seems disruptive and unhelpful (as an outside party, I was having trouble following the thread of employee discussion interrupted as it was by internet furor).

If an issue is public everyone can comment on it until it is locked. I don't think there is another setting.

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#527

Post by em-bee »

fastball wrote: post #522
em-bee wrote: post #462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i am not sure we are getting anywhere with this argument. i don't really see the point. when a list has a fixed number of possible entries, then the difference between whitelist and blacklist is purely academic. the result is exactly the same.

You seem to be talking about reciprocal lists (blacklist of 3 -> whitelist of 247, whitelist of 10 -> blacklist of 240, etc), which is not what OC was talking about. OC was specifically talking about going from a "small whitelist" to a "small blacklist". Not a "large whitelist to a small blacklist" and certainly not anything the other way around. Whitelist with 3 countries: I have vetted three countries, and know my…

you are right, i completely misread that.

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#528

Post by [deleted] »

istinspring wrote: post #467
teknologist wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever been to China? Such discrimination happens left, right and center. If you’re of an “acceptable” origin and have the right skin color, you might be ok...

and where it's different? look at distribution of people of color among boards of directors, senate etc.

[deleted]

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#529

Post by teknologist »

istinspring wrote: post #467
teknologist wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever been to China? Such discrimination happens left, right and center. If you’re of an “acceptable” origin and have the right skin color, you might be ok...

and where it's different? look at distribution of people of color among boards of directors, senate etc.

Because there are less people of ethnic minorities than in the majority demographic. That’s why they’re called minorities. The key point is that they have a chance.

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#530

Post by proverbialbunny »

blaesus wrote: post #225

I am Chinese living in China. Nationalism is on the rise lately in China, not just for domestic reasons, but also as an reaction to nationalistic moves from "the West" like this one. It's a recurring theme, not just in governmental propaganda, but also in daily conversations, that "the West" would talk about fairness and justice then commit blatant discrimination and double standards. As a founder of a tech company b…

I've noticed nationalism rising in China lately too.

It's easy to pay attention to difference between people and culture, as noticing difference is what we instinctively do, but it is also beneficial to notice our similarities too. We're all people. Besides minor cultural differences, we all respond in similar ways to the situations we are given throughout life.

>As a founder of a tech company based in China, I benefit from US companies blocking Chinese (and Russian) engineers; still I am saddened by this. I hope they could come up with more intelligent policies to protect their OPSEC.

btw, is it legal to read HN in China?

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