Separating gifted children hasn't led to better achievement • Hacker News Board

Re: Separating gifted children hasn't led to better achievement

#171

Post by Spooky23 » Tue, Nov 05, 2019, 3:54 AM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #47

When I was in middle school in the 90s, I think around 7th grade (~12yo), the school district experimented with a new way of organizing the student body where they separated us into six distinct, equally sized cohorts based on some evaluation of each student's performance and capability. From what I could tell it was rougly: 1. Gifted / clearly university-bound 2. Potential college prep 3. Community college 4. Normal…

The problem is that you are picking winners at a young age based on bullshit metrics and favoritism.

The kids in the middle get screwed. How would you like to be tracked as only worthy of community college because of how you did in 4th or 5th grade?

Re: Separating gifted children hasn't led to better achievement

#172

Post by eloff » Tue, Nov 05, 2019, 3:55 AM UTC

thatfrenchguy wrote: post #143

borski wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amen to this. I was separated (went to Stuyvesant HS in NYC) and it made a world of difference for me, as compared to JHS or elementary school. Prior to Stuy, I was bullied like crazy, beaten, and it was very difficult to try and fit in with many of the others around me who, frankly, just didn't give a fuck . It really sucked. Stuy was a different world, and the first time in my life I felt the opportunity to actuall…

> Prior to Stuy, I was bullied like crazy, beaten, and it was very difficult to try and fit in with many of the others around me who, frankly, just didn't give a fuck. It really sucked Can't we fix bullying in the first place ?

I wonder if it's better in old style schools not segmented by age. Then faster physical development gives much less of an advantage, and the immature younger students can have their behavior moderated by the older, hopefully more mature students. And older siblings can watch out for younger ones.

Re: Separating gifted children hasn't led to better achievement

#173

Post by mltony » Tue, Nov 05, 2019, 3:57 AM UTC

I come from Russia, where the idea of gifted classes is taken to the next level: instead of gifted classes we have entire gifted schools. If this is true, that children who coudln't make it into gifted class are so much demoralized by the presence of gifted children, how about we build gifted schools here in the U.S.? This way non-gifted students won't be exposed to gifted ones on a dayily basis. Transportation might be an issue though - in Russia it is absolutely normal when 8 or 9-year old children take public transportation to school on their own.

Re: Separating gifted children hasn't led to better achievement

#174

Post by kazinator » Tue, Nov 05, 2019, 3:58 AM UTC

If students are inappropriate put into advanced classes, they will struggle, and of course that will bring down the achievement of the student body.

> Eight Bay Area school districts found similar results when they de-tracked middle-school mathematics and provided professional development to teachers. In 2014, 63 percent of students were in advanced classes, whereas in 2015 only 12 percent were in advanced classes and everyone else was taking Math 8.

How did they "de-track" anything? Just the numbers were reshuffled. Advanced classes continued, with reduced enrollment.

Could it be that though 63% were in advanced classes in 2014, only 12% (or fewer) actually belonged there? So the 2015 picture was a rational correction?

Re: Separating gifted children hasn't led to better achievement

#175

Post by toast0 » Tue, Nov 05, 2019, 3:59 AM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #47

When I was in middle school in the 90s, I think around 7th grade (~12yo), the school district experimented with a new way of organizing the student body where they separated us into six distinct, equally sized cohorts based on some evaluation of each student's performance and capability. From what I could tell it was rougly: 1. Gifted / clearly university-bound 2. Potential college prep 3. Community college 4. Normal…

So, I think tracking like this becomes unpopular because of treatment or perception of treatment of the kids in your higher numbered tracks.

Not a lot of parents are going to be thrilled to hear that their third (or 7th) grader is probably going to drop out. And they're going to wonder if the teachers are just going to give up on the kids in that track.

To do this in a way that would be perceived as positive for all tracks, you'd need to put more resources towards the higher numbered tracks, and make it clear that's what's going on. Smaller class sizes / more instructional aides / better teachers go to the kids who need more help; and put gifted kids into larger classes, because they'll probably manage fine.

Of course, smaller classes needs more teachers / money. It's cheaper to lump everyone together and hope the kids that get it help the other kids.

Also, you need to make it possible/easy to move tracks to adjust if screening got you in the wrong one. And be mindful of systemic bias influencing track selection.

Re: Separating gifted children hasn't led to better achievement

#176

Post by barry-cotter » Tue, Nov 05, 2019, 4:03 AM UTC

TylerE wrote: post #168

barry-cotter wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> on average, public-school teachers receive total compensation that is roughly 50 percent higher than what they would receive in private-sector employment. While salaries are at appropriate levels, fringe benefits push teacher compensation far ahead of what private-sector workers enjoy. Consequently, recruiting more effective teachers for public schools will be much more difficult than simply raising salaries. https…

Have you ever, like, talked to any teachers? Because that's total bullshit, which isn't surprising being from the Good Ole Boys Propaganda Office. https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/heritage-foundation/

I was a teacher for five years, am related to multiple teachers and many of my friends are teachers.

If you have any actual comments on the statistical analysis comparing teachers with other workers and how they’re paid feel free to share.

Re: Separating gifted children hasn't led to better achievement

#177

Post by jacobsenscott » Tue, Nov 05, 2019, 4:04 AM UTC

Getting classified as G&T is a joke and severely damaging. All it means is your parents taught you to read a little earlier than most other kids. It's mostly about giving your parents and school administrators bragging rights. Everyone calls you a genius for the next 10 or 12 years. You incorporates that as the most important part of your identity. Then people level out. You aren't the best at everything anymore. Some classes actually get hard. You graduate in the top 10%, but not the top 1%. Your core identity shatters. You are smart, but there are lots of smart people and you really aren't that special. Suddenly you are emotionally 10 years behind the people how figured that out in middle school. Hopefully you can pull out of the spiral and live a normal life.

Re: Separating gifted children hasn't led to better achievement

#178

Post by kazinator » Tue, Nov 05, 2019, 4:06 AM UTC

hackerrenews wrote: post #9

I was fourth picked for g&t. First and second pick ended up being quite successful, as did the third picked. One has a high up, prestigious position at Amazon and the other retired from Microsoft wealthy. Me, I smoke weed and that’s about the only thing I’ve really done consistently since high school.. more consistently than music, and programming, even. Frankly, I wish I had been better separated from the other kids…

People separate as they go through life, and that should start in school. You shouldn't have to wait until you graduate.

Re: Separating gifted children hasn't led to better achievement

#179

Post by JohnBooty » Tue, Nov 05, 2019, 4:06 AM UTC

Gifted education (and other advanced classes) were important because it taught me it was okay to be smart and learn things.

A lot of other kids will try and keep you down. Make fun of you for using big words and knowing things and learning things.

At the same time I'm glad I didn't grow up in a bubble with only gifted kids. Coping with people different than you is an important skill.

Re: Separating gifted children hasn't led to better achievement

#180

Post by cortesoft » Tue, Nov 05, 2019, 4:06 AM UTC

shantly wrote: post #115

underpand wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends on your support system when you're a kid/teen. Facing stress and challenges when you're unable to handle them can cause irreversible trauma. Some people would be better off learning to face them when they are adults.

I had a relatively easy high school experience compared to many—almost no physical bullying, very little bullying otherwise, ran with a couple friend groups outside my almost-the-nerdiest-bunch-but-not-quite primary group that had a kind of light-alternative "cool" factor, school was decent and supportive by local standards at least, happened to pick up weight lifting in junior high and stuck with it so got pretty da…

Man, your highschool experience sounds totally different than mine. Highschool wasn't always great, but it was mostly ok and I had a lot of good times. I wasn't popular, but had good friends.

I am also a middle aged guy with a couple of kids, and I think raising children is way more stressful than highschool ever was.