Bitcoin as a Game • Hacker News Board

Re: Bitcoin as a Game

#31

Post by JohnJamesRambo » Tue, Nov 05, 2019, 3:10 AM UTC

LanceH wrote: post #15

JohnJamesRambo wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoin has a just as relevant, or more so, actual use in buying drugs and frowned upon things on the internet, escaping government restrictions on money, etc.

Gold has those same uses but at an international level and is generally approved of. The gold may never actually move, but ownership will transfer between countries.

But you have to use a middleman or intermediary. The genius of bitcoin was when Satoshi removed that and solved the double-spending problem in a decentralized way.

>Bitcoin: A Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System

Re: Bitcoin as a Game

#32

Post by dragonwriter » Tue, Nov 05, 2019, 3:13 AM UTC

seibelj wrote: post #27

So many articles about Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies today! I've devoted a lot of my career to blockchain, and here is my brief summary: - Blockchain typically means a tamper-proof, distributed database. - Smart contracts are like stored database procedures. - Blockchains allow you to transact valuable assets - even billions! - without needing to trust your counter-party. - However, you must trust the underlying softw…

> However, you must trust the underlying software! This is a fundamentally different risk from usual financial transactions where you trust the institutions servicing the exchange, but not necessarily the counter-party. This turns finance upside-down!

No, this is just normal finance: most of the financial service industry is providing exactly what blockchain provides—a way to have a trusted set of institutions and processes in places of trusting counterparties.

It's different that the crypto world likes to pretend it's just the automated processes embedded in software that need to be trusted—until those processes produce unacceptable results which requires social intervention, revealing that, yes, ultimately it's still trusting people—whereas traditional finance is overt about social constraints backstopping blind process.

Re: Bitcoin as a Game

#33

Post by richk449 » Tue, Nov 05, 2019, 3:13 AM UTC

ftufek wrote: post #25

richk449 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surely there is a difference between investments that have underlying value, but are speculated on, and investments which have no underlying value except that due to speculation.

Isn't the underlying value here mathematically provable scarcity ?

How is that valuable, aside from ones ability to speculate on how much people will want it in the future?

As an aside, I agree with the other poster that there is no intrinsic scarcity to bitcoin, because anyone can create bitcoinN which are nearly identical to bitcoin. I say nearly because you can’t necessarily replicate the network, so the scarcity really depends on complicated emergent human behavior.

Re: Bitcoin as a Game

#34

Post by lalaland1125 » Tue, Nov 05, 2019, 3:14 AM UTC

nullc wrote: post #30

lalaland1125 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no true scarcity. I can create a clone of Bitcoin in seconds just by cloning a github repository and changing one line.

Your clone of Bitcoin wouldn't be a 'clone' any more than a lead bar is a 'clone' of gold. You might call it bitcoin all you want, but no actualy bitcoin software would be fooled. (You might trick some people, but fraud has existed long before computers). It's a lot less expensive to reliably distinguish a fraudulent bitcoin from a fraudulent goal bar. So even if you hold the position that there is no perfect scarcit…

My clone of bitcoin would have exactly the same properties as bitcoin. Your lead bar doesn't have any of the useful properties of gold (ductability, beauty, conductivity, etc).

Re: Bitcoin as a Game

#35

Post by 1996 » Tue, Nov 05, 2019, 3:14 AM UTC

lalaland1125 wrote: post #29

ftufek wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the underlying value here mathematically provable scarcity ?

There is no true scarcity. I can create a clone of Bitcoin in seconds just by cloning a github repository and changing one line.

Tell me, how do replicate the network effects of current miners? You know, the thing that prevents someone with decent mining power in their garage to take over your clone? (or do a doublespend, or whatever) The network effect is security. Which come from the expenditure. Which is sustainable with the rising price. Which was baked in through the declining emission curve. Beautifully well thought, and well executed.

I too was doubtful about bitcoin at first. It's just plain obvious now: first mover advantage, leading to the development of highly specific ASICs, with a side advantage of allowing the cross border trade of electricity when turned it into mining power. So if you live in some isolated place but with cheap energy, money!!

BTC is too big to fail. A success that can't be replicated or taken down as it was ignored for too long. Even more unimaginable now that it benefits some people who wouldn't let them happen without a fight, and who have the power and the money to give this fight.

Re: Bitcoin as a Game

#36

Post by teh_infallible » Tue, Nov 05, 2019, 3:18 AM UTC

Zimahl wrote: post #7

The problem with the Bitcoin game is there is no longer the 'millionaire overnight' scenario as a possibility. Sure, you could buy 1 coin and it could go up 10x, yet you'd still only be (at this time) $90k richer. Which isn't bad but the big climb from decimal places up to full dollars is where there was more possibility. Common folks can take a gamble on 100 coins for $1 a piece, they really can't take a gamble at $…

Another psychological phenomenon which I suspect is relevant- people don’t want to buy into something at an exponentially higher price than their peers. I think there’s a spite/jealousy thing between “OG Bitcoiners” and “no coiners”

Re: Bitcoin as a Game

#37

Post by richk449 » Tue, Nov 05, 2019, 3:22 AM UTC

nullc wrote: post #30

lalaland1125 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no true scarcity. I can create a clone of Bitcoin in seconds just by cloning a github repository and changing one line.

Your clone of Bitcoin wouldn't be a 'clone' any more than a lead bar is a 'clone' of gold. You might call it bitcoin all you want, but no actualy bitcoin software would be fooled. (You might trick some people, but fraud has existed long before computers). It's a lot less expensive to reliably distinguish a fraudulent bitcoin from a fraudulent goal bar. So even if you hold the position that there is no perfect scarcit…

If you want an element that acts like gold (doesn’t oxidize, high electrical conductivity, high thermal conductivity, malleable, etc.), you need gold. You can’t replace it with lead and get the same results.

If you want a string of bits that acts like bitcoin, you can replace it with Xcoin, for many values of X. You can even create your own coin which does whatever you need. You may not be able to replicate the network, which may provide some amount of scarcity, but it’s not the same as gold.

Re: Bitcoin as a Game

#38

Post by drtillberg » Tue, Nov 05, 2019, 3:22 AM UTC

nullc wrote: post #30

lalaland1125 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no true scarcity. I can create a clone of Bitcoin in seconds just by cloning a github repository and changing one line.

Your clone of Bitcoin wouldn't be a 'clone' any more than a lead bar is a 'clone' of gold. You might call it bitcoin all you want, but no actualy bitcoin software would be fooled. (You might trick some people, but fraud has existed long before computers). It's a lot less expensive to reliably distinguish a fraudulent bitcoin from a fraudulent goal bar. So even if you hold the position that there is no perfect scarcit…

If you and 1 other person use the cloned Bitcoin, that's a network. How many other participants do you need before new Bitcoin is comparable in every tangible way to old Bitcoin?

Re: Bitcoin as a Game

#39

Post by ftufek » Tue, Nov 05, 2019, 3:22 AM UTC

lalaland1125 wrote: post #34

nullc wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your clone of Bitcoin wouldn't be a 'clone' any more than a lead bar is a 'clone' of gold. You might call it bitcoin all you want, but no actualy bitcoin software would be fooled. (You might trick some people, but fraud has existed long before computers). It's a lot less expensive to reliably distinguish a fraudulent bitcoin from a fraudulent goal bar. So even if you hold the position that there is no perfect scarcit…

My clone of bitcoin would have exactly the same properties as bitcoin. Your lead bar doesn't have any of the useful properties of gold (ductability, beauty, conductivity, etc).

Except that your bitcoin won't have exactly the same properties as bitcoin, mainly the miners which do provide network security.

Re: Bitcoin as a Game

#40

Post by grubles » Tue, Nov 05, 2019, 3:23 AM UTC

lalaland1125 wrote: post #29

ftufek wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the underlying value here mathematically provable scarcity ?

There is no true scarcity. I can create a clone of Bitcoin in seconds just by cloning a github repository and changing one line.

Which will be promptly rejected as invalid since the nodes on the Bitcoin network validate everything. This is partially why (among other reasons) Bitcoin is transformative tech. It can resist quite easily individuals trying to forcefully change aspects of it, like say, cloning the entire supply of bitcoin.