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Separating gifted children hasn't led to better achievement

hechingerreport.org

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Re: Separating gifted children hasn't led to better achievement

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Ordinary" being the typical sort of public school most children in your city/county/etc would go to. A school that pre-selects students based on race, wealth, test scores, etc would not count as ordinary for obvious reasons. If what I wrote was drivel, it should be very easy to refute. Just labeling it as drivel seems like a cop-out--driven more by ideology than first-hand experience.

By your definition, yes, I went to an ordinary school. My personal experience is against your position, for what it's worth. >>> Their paymasters want high-value cogs. > If what I wrote was drivel, it should be very easy to refute. You made the claim. You have the burden of proof. Show that either the educational bureaucrats have a "paymaster" that is different from the state bureaucracy, or that the higher-ups in th…

"educational bureaucrats" includes "state bureaucracy". They're just pocket-lining middlemen. They have no agency. The final "paymasters" would be corporations, small businesses, and their PR agents in the non-profit sector.

Examples:

- textbooks--topics that haven't changed in centuries--better-covered by texts from generations ago. school system still buys sorry books at $100+ a pop because salesgirl wined-and-dined the right batch of bureaucrats. pearson, mc-graw, et al spend a few thousand, then rake in millions.

- job training--local corp wants more welders/java programmers/truckers, drops some cash on school board members (directly or indirectly), then bibbity-bobbity-boo there's a brand new training center attached to a high school for some thing that I would barely even consider to be education. again, leverage to hell-and-back. tens of thousands in bribes, millions in taxpayer $$$ for free worker training & wage reduction.

- educational software--oh my God. have you even seen some of the shit they waste the kids' time with these days. how does it come about? same story as the rest.

- religion--the motive behind most western art and history, be it protagonist or antagonist. can't talk about it though--massive black hole in any sort of humanities education.

- owned teachers--the front-line infantry, who should be able to offer constructive insights into the process are utterly powerless. too poorly paid to accumulate f-you money, and so terrified of getting kicked out before their pensions vest, they must keep their opinions to themselves and quietly tow the line.

- poor accreditation--by the numbers, education programs at colleges have notoriously low standards. verified by personal experience. we had math teachers who couldn't multiply, and english teachers who couldn't diagram a sentence. thank God for the teacher's edition!

I could go on, and on, and on...

Re: Separating gifted children hasn't led to better achievement

#112
post #33

I was fourth picked for g&t. First and second pick ended up being quite successful, as did the third picked. One has a high up, prestigious position at Amazon and the other retired from Microsoft wealthy. Me, I smoke weed and that’s about the only thing I’ve really done consistently since high school.. more consistently than music, and programming, even. Frankly, I wish I had been better separated from the other kids…

Amen to this. I was separated (went to Stuyvesant HS in NYC) and it made a world of difference for me, as compared to JHS or elementary school. Prior to Stuy, I was bullied like crazy, beaten, and it was very difficult to try and fit in with many of the others around me who, frankly, just didn't give a fuck . It really sucked. Stuy was a different world, and the first time in my life I felt the opportunity to actuall…

The solution is not to pull out a handful of high performers, it’s to kick out the even smaller number of disrupters.

Re: Separating gifted children hasn't led to better achievement

#113
There a lot more options than tracked vs non-tracked.

My public school district implemented a combination of pull-out programs, advanced sections, and tracking on a per-subject and sometimes per-previous year's performance basis. A lot of effort was made to keep class cohorts together, while allowing students who excel at a specific subject to engage in a more challenging curriculum for that particular subject. These were all based on independent assessments. There wasn't a notion of "track" because most students were in a hodgepodge of "advanced/ahead" and "regular" courses, depending on the subject, depending on the previous year's performance, or depending on whether they themselves decided to sign up for the class or not.

A high school kid could:

- be a year ahead in English (which would only separate them from classmates for freshman and sophomore year; English curriculum was completely open, like college, after sophomore-level English.)

- be in one of three math cohorts

- be in the honors or regular section of a science course (based on the previous year's science performance). It was always the same science subject (eg, honors bio vs bio).

- take any AP course they met the prereqs for (iirc, pretty much all APs were available to all students within four years, save AP Calc, which would require a summer school catch up for those in the baseline math track).

- have been in the gifted pull-out program in elementary school (no special curriculum for "gifted" students in high school, afaik)

Re: Separating gifted children hasn't led to better achievement

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Ordinary" being the typical sort of public school most children in your city/county/etc would go to. A school that pre-selects students based on race, wealth, test scores, etc would not count as ordinary for obvious reasons. If what I wrote was drivel, it should be very easy to refute. Just labeling it as drivel seems like a cop-out--driven more by ideology than first-hand experience.

Let's say there is a city (somewhere in the northern half of the US) that has seen better days, due to the rise and fall of local industry in the 20th century, and there is a town/suburb that has much higher property values and better schools. The students in the suburban school(s) are much more likely to go to college than in the city schools. The suburb is nearly all white, with lots of parents with well-paying STE…

This is a media falsehood. Money != Quality Education.

Lived in one city. Higher wages, higher level of overall education, multiple colleges, very high per-pupil expenditure--terrible performance.

Lived in a rural town. Low wages, uneducated, poor, lower per-pupil expenditure--outstanding school performance.

I'll ponder some other hypothesis, but money ain't it.

edit: will add--before someone derps me on sample size--that a careful review of the stats will establish this as the rule rather than the exception.

Re: Separating gifted children hasn't led to better achievement

#115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always feel like my most valuable lessons from school was about how to live and interact with people of different types. I learned academic stuff outside of school... it was learning to deal with dumb people, bullies, smart jerks, dumb teachers, stupid rules, etc that were the lessons most important to my life.

It depends on your support system when you're a kid/teen. Facing stress and challenges when you're unable to handle them can cause irreversible trauma. Some people would be better off learning to face them when they are adults.

I had a relatively easy high school experience compared to many—almost no physical bullying, very little bullying otherwise, ran with a couple friend groups outside my almost-the-nerdiest-bunch-but-not-quite primary group that had a kind of light-alternative "cool" factor, school was decent and supportive by local standards at least, happened to pick up weight lifting in junior high and stuck with it so got pretty damn cut rather than continuing down the path of lard—but it was still easily the hardest four years of my life so far (now entering middle age, have multiple kids, a job, all that adult stuff).

College was like a vacation afterward. People mostly don't do a bunch of stupid, mean, disruptive bullshit, and if they do you're not expected to just put up with it? 15ish hours in class and you can arrange your schedule for a mix of hard and easy classes to come out way under the ~45-50hrs/wk of in-class and homework/study time of high school, plus you can usually figure a way not to have to get up before the fucking sun at least 2-3 days of the week, if not all of them? If you need to whizz you just... go? If you are sick or just need a mental health day you just send an email or three and rest, and it may mean a little more work later but no-one busts your balls over it as long as you don't do it too much? What is this, paradise?

It was shocking how much less stressful it was. It truly kinda messed me up for a while, just not understanding how to function outside the pressure-cooker of high school. The socialization there had almost nothing to do with how adults relate to one another in the real world, and the constantly high social stress levels, tight and absolute control by adults, and inability to make any reasonable or ordinary effort to get out of that plainly-very-bad situation, were insane compared to most of the "adult" world.

No wonder so many teens are depressed. School is really awful. Like, structurally so. In the best case. The first few months with a newborn, but after you've gone back to work so are trying to do both things, approach but are not quite as stressful, overall, as high school, in the typical case. I'm not kidding.

Re: Separating gifted children hasn't led to better achievement

#116

This difference between tracked and untracked math experiences was illuminated recently in a survey we gave to San Francisco ninth-graders and ninth-graders across another large district, where all students are in tracked groups. The San Francisco students were significantly more positive about both mathematics and their own potential. Importantly, the San Francisco students were also significantly more likely than s…

> So is the topic achievement, or is the topic their feelings?

While the whole piece is a mess, I think the statistic about confidence is provided as a manner of providing a potential explanation of the manner in which the policy change produced the performance change (for which statistics are also provided.)

Re: Separating gifted children hasn't led to better achievement

#117

It's worth mentioning that gifted and talented schools also put all the top test takers into a small number of schools within a system taking away AP opportunities and other funding from other schools within the system. Additionally, other kids in the system miss out from the interaction with top performing students whose habits and interests can rub off and help lift up other students. One of the most important part…

the best students should never be weighed down to benefit the lower performers. the top percentile people in essentially any pursuit are responsible for a disproportionately large impact. it is far more important for the top performers to achieve their potential than for the middle to do slightly better.

Re: Separating gifted children hasn't led to better achievement

#118
post #8

Here's the opposite perspective: https://www.baltimoresun.com/opinion/bs-xpm-2012-02-06-bs-ed... > But as the facts now show, smart kids don't always stay smart, and when they are bored or bullied or ridiculed or neglected, some turn off and some drop out. Thirty-plus years of experience and research into how these students learn has taught us that the academically able can and must be challenged and engaged, inspire…

Right, so it raises the question: What is the relative importance of helping the best students verse helping the worst students? Even if we solve the talent identification problem, SOME kids are going to be the lower achievers.... are we willing to sacrifice helping them do better to help the top achievers do their best? How much are we willing to sacrifice in either direction?

Nobody needs to be sacrificed!

The right way to do this is obviously that everyone gets an education adapted to their needs and talents!

That means special programs for the "gifted" as well as for the "not much with the book learning" kids.

A "one size fits all" education will always be a compromise that's maybe optimal for the median kid.

Re: Separating gifted children hasn't led to better achievement

#119
post #11

I think in a few decades people will be looking back at the obsession over achievement and academics as something weird. People learn and achieve in different paces, and, assuming a lifetime of continuous opportunity for learning (as we have today), the metrics of specific ages are obsolete things.

even if everyone could have all their bills paid for them so they could learn all day at any age, it's ludicrous to suggest this would "obsolete" the discussion of how to treat intelligent kids in relation to others.

also fluid intelligence declines over time so it is absolutely in society's interest to identify talent and assist it as early as possible.

Re: Separating gifted children hasn't led to better achievement

#120
post #112
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amen to this. I was separated (went to Stuyvesant HS in NYC) and it made a world of difference for me, as compared to JHS or elementary school. Prior to Stuy, I was bullied like crazy, beaten, and it was very difficult to try and fit in with many of the others around me who, frankly, just didn't give a fuck . It really sucked. Stuy was a different world, and the first time in my life I felt the opportunity to actuall…

The solution is not to pull out a handful of high performers, it’s to kick out the even smaller number of disrupters.

Yes, but how would that work in practice? Special schools for high performers is much more palatable than special schools for quarantining children who aren't going to amount to anything (no matter what you call it and how you design it, this is how it will be perceived).
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