Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

I Got Access to My Secret Consumer Score

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

311–320 of 341 posts

Re: I Got Access to My Secret Consumer Score

#311

Post by jklein11 »

SamBam wrote: post #249
nosuchuser2 wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you misunderstand HIPAA. As long as they have a business associate agreement with the pharmacies and serve some vaguely care-adjacent purpose, the pharmacy can share your data with them without your knowledge or consent.

I can't tell if you're being cynical or serious, but if the latter I can't see how this is correct. From "Pharmacy privacy Requirements here [1], I don't think "business associate agreement [with] some vaguely care-adjacent purpose" meets the standards for information-sharing. Rather the information must be being shared as part of specific treatment for a patient (discussing actual care) or payment. [1] https://www.u…

> HIPAA has a rule that permits disclosure of PHI for health care operations, treatment, and payment.

I think this is what the GP was referring to. It's not just for care but for payment and operations too. A few operational examples, in the case of pharmacies, they must make sure that a patient doesn't fill the same prescription twice. Health insurance companies receive clinical data from health care providers for the purposes of HEDIS reporting.

Don't forget, the second P in HIPPA is portability.

Re: I Got Access to My Secret Consumer Score

#312

Post by diminoten »

autoexec wrote: post #295
diminoten wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What the hell are you talking about? I'm not libertarian or ranting, I'm saying this is a complex issue and the "LETS REGULATE IT" feels premature given how complex and subtle the issue is, and how hard laws are to change once they're on the books. Methinks you're projecting more than a little bit. Also your comment is some of the most toxic I've seen on HN in a little while, and I'm not exactly a ray of sunshine on…

> I'm saying this is a complex issue and the "LETS REGULATE IT" feels premature given how complex and subtle the issue is, and how hard laws are to change once they're on the books. There is a difference between "This specific regulation fails to take X into account" or even "This is a complex issue which requires carefully crafted regulation" and your stance which seems to be that regulation is impossible or undesir…

Why do you think I said regulation is impossible or undesirable?

Re: I Got Access to My Secret Consumer Score

#313

Post by qrbLPHiKpiux »

momokoko wrote: post #302
reggieband wrote: post #253

There is a scene at the beginning of the movie Brazil [1] where a literal bug falls into a tele-type, causes an error that starts a chain reaction that frames the events of the movie. The bug is a metaphor in the movie, just some nice visual story-telling to indicate how errors in automated processes can have unintended consequences. I honestly fear that entire lives will be ruined by AI systems mis-analyzing some da…

> AI systems mis-analyzing some data and locking people out from education, work, credit and health opportunities. College admissions? Resume screens? Mortgage applications? We already have that at scale. There wouldn't be so much money in gaming those things if the AI wasn't doing such a poor job. You likely just happen to be someone that isn't on the wrong side of it.

Call AI for what it is.

Garbage in, garbage out.

GIGO

Re: I Got Access to My Secret Consumer Score

#314

Post by RachelF »

reggieband wrote: post #253

There is a scene at the beginning of the movie Brazil [1] where a literal bug falls into a tele-type, causes an error that starts a chain reaction that frames the events of the movie. The bug is a metaphor in the movie, just some nice visual story-telling to indicate how errors in automated processes can have unintended consequences. I honestly fear that entire lives will be ruined by AI systems mis-analyzing some da…

This has already happened in Australia. The AI that runs the government equivalent of social security and the tax office, has been programmed to send debt notices to tens of thousands of people on welfare. The Aussies call it "Robodebt".

Re: I Got Access to My Secret Consumer Score

#315

Post by autoexec »

diminoten wrote: post #312
autoexec wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm saying this is a complex issue and the "LETS REGULATE IT" feels premature given how complex and subtle the issue is, and how hard laws are to change once they're on the books. There is a difference between "This specific regulation fails to take X into account" or even "This is a complex issue which requires carefully crafted regulation" and your stance which seems to be that regulation is impossible or undesir…

Why do you think I said regulation is impossible or undesirable?

I suppose it was somewhere between when you said that government shouldn't regulate or try to fix the problem until they have a better understanding of it ("this is a complex issue and the "LETS REGULATE IT" feels premature given how complex and subtle the issue is...We need to understand the full scope of the problem, rather than try to fix what isn't fully grasped") and that you don't think the government is capable of doing exactly that. ("I have very little faith in the US government to accurately grasp the subtleties and nuances of the advertising and privacy problems")

I acknowledge that you may have just worded things poorly, or intended your words to mean something else which is why I prefaced by question with "If".

If you actually do think the US government should regulate this, how should that be done given your concerns of their inability to understand the issue and taking into account the fact that any mistakes they make will take effort to correct once it's been put into law?

Re: I Got Access to My Secret Consumer Score

#316

Post by diminoten »

autoexec wrote: post #315
diminoten wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think I said regulation is impossible or undesirable?

I suppose it was somewhere between when you said that government shouldn't regulate or try to fix the problem until they have a better understanding of it ( "this is a complex issue and the "LETS REGULATE IT" feels premature given how complex and subtle the issue is...We need to understand the full scope of the problem, rather than try to fix what isn't fully grasped" ) and that you don't think the government is capa…

Are you open to the possibility that you treated me overly harshly, and that I've never actually taken the position you seem to badly want me to have taken? Or is that beyond the pale, and this is exclusively my fault?

To try and contribute to this conversation a small amount, it makes the most sense to me to establish a Professional Engineer like system for the software industry. I don't know all of the details about how these systems work, but a friend of mine is a structural engineer and as he's described it to me it creates a personal ethical obligation that currently feels entirely absent from the software industry.

This ties the regulation to the industry, lets the experts decide what is and isn't okay, while also involving personal ethics and keeping individuals accountable for their decisions.

Keep getting called by a spam bot? A licensed engineer can be tied to that system, and can be punished.

A self driving car had a bug that couldn't tell the difference between a plastic bag and a child, forcing the vehicle into a concrete barrier? Someone stamped that code, and is now accountable.

Is a company using your tracking data to raise your medical bills based on your online food order history? That company's engineers are liable, you can sue them personally.

Again, not sure of the details about how this works in the construction industry, but when you put professionals at personal risk, they tend to care more about the outcomes, and it doesn't end up forcing the US government (specifically legislators) to understand all the details.

Re: I Got Access to My Secret Consumer Score

#317

Post by carlmr »

bradknowles wrote: post #306
temp626 wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humans are not much better gatekeepers. Studies have shown that for example having certain name can be serious disadvantage when applying for work. Algorithms can be bad as well, but at least you can look into them to understand the reasons.

Maybe. They can also be inscrutable. And that's just basic algorithms and regular human-written code. Then you've got ML systems which are a whole 'nother level of inscrutable.

Or buggy. We're already running plenty of buggy code, but at least the errors can usually be found. If an AI overflows on some intermediate calculation sometimes because of implementation error I'm almost sure nobody will find that.

Re: I Got Access to My Secret Consumer Score

#318

Post by glofish »

vehementi wrote: post #303
glofish wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem is that the rules are not applied evenly and transparently. Of course not. Never are, again you are not saying much here. Also with the billions of wasted dollars. Of course, but that is a natural consequence of dealing with immense scope - it is going to be very inefficient and stupid. Still a far cry from actual corruption. I feel that people tossing around the word corruption don't really understand…

You can claim that people tossing around corruption don't understand it... but you in the first place don't understand the scenario OP is even describing (as they're unable to provide details, you couldn't possibly be making an accurate judgment). So it is far fetched for you to confidently claim OP is misusing corruption etc. here.

I am simply responding to what others also called out, that none of the evidences the poster claimed to exist were indicative of corruption,

hence the logical and reasonable assumption that the poster is misusing the term, obviously I can only comment on what is stated here,

Re: I Got Access to My Secret Consumer Score

#319

Post by autoexec »

diminoten wrote: post #316
autoexec wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose it was somewhere between when you said that government shouldn't regulate or try to fix the problem until they have a better understanding of it ( "this is a complex issue and the "LETS REGULATE IT" feels premature given how complex and subtle the issue is...We need to understand the full scope of the problem, rather than try to fix what isn't fully grasped" ) and that you don't think the government is capa…

Are you open to the possibility that you treated me overly harshly, and that I've never actually taken the position you seem to badly want me to have taken? Or is that beyond the pale, and this is exclusively my fault? To try and contribute to this conversation a small amount, it makes the most sense to me to establish a Professional Engineer like system for the software industry. I don't know all of the details abou…

I'm fully open to the possibility that I've misinterpreted some of what you've said.

I wouldn't mind seeing that kind of system applied to some software companies. I'm not sure that fully solves the problem, but I really do like the idea of having someone willing to be held accountable for problems.

I think one issue with this would be that companies who keep their activity opaque enough are highly unlikely to be caught by users. A major data leak or a hacked system might be detectable, but a backroom deal to share data with a medical or insurance company would likely go undetected without a whistleblower to expose what was happening. If a bridge collapses, or a fire starts, or a floor sinks, it's a little easier to see when building/fire codes weren't followed.

I think a system like this would be best used when some rules are already in place for what a company can and cannot do. Then a company's certified security/privacy person would be responsible for making sure everything was done in full compliance with whatever guidelines were established. This would probably be needed anyway if you tried to sue the company's engineers later. If nothing they do with your data is actually illegal those lawsuits won't get very far.

I do agree that compliance checking and having that level of accountability could help developers rein in marketing teams, greedy shareholders, and stupid managers who put pressure on them to add tracking and anti-consumer code to their products.

I do worry about what it would mean for small startups, volunteer/personal projects, and single developers. It might be a more secure world if anyone who wants to write an app can't just slap a boilerplate notice that they aren't responsible for anything if you choose to use it, but my guess is that there might also be a lot fewer apps.

Re: I Got Access to My Secret Consumer Score

#320

Post by diminoten »

autoexec wrote: post #319
diminoten wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you open to the possibility that you treated me overly harshly, and that I've never actually taken the position you seem to badly want me to have taken? Or is that beyond the pale, and this is exclusively my fault? To try and contribute to this conversation a small amount, it makes the most sense to me to establish a Professional Engineer like system for the software industry. I don't know all of the details abou…

I'm fully open to the possibility that I've misinterpreted some of what you've said. I wouldn't mind seeing that kind of system applied to some software companies. I'm not sure that fully solves the problem, but I really do like the idea of having someone willing to be held accountable for problems. I think one issue with this would be that companies who keep their activity opaque enough are highly unlikely to be cau…

That's what regulation does, it restricts the players in a field to the ones who have the resources to follow those regulations. It is definitely a limiting factor on an industry, but I thought we were sort of assuming that the rampant "anyone can play" nature of software was the source of many of the industry's problems right now.

My point is that if someone has to do it, I would A) want the industry to police itself (let me finish) and B) would want individuals to be unable to hide behind corporations, to the extent that is reasonably possible. These together could, I believe, make more of a dent in the problems in the software industry today than any one specific topic of legislation (e.g. privacy laws or digital advertising laws) could.

Imagine if you could lose your software license for writing adware! Would it stop everyone/everything? No, definitely not. Would it give your average corporate software engineer a leg to stand on when they try to say no to their bosses when the business wants to start selling customer data unethically? Hell yes!

"I could lose my license if I add that feature." <- huge impact.

Post reply on HN