Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia • Hacker News Board

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#471

Post by mbesto » Mon, Nov 04, 2019, 5:50 PM UTC

490d0aff0ee8 wrote: post #460

mbesto wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the systems should be tight enough to make sure absolutely no-one has access to customer data without consent - and that any actions taken are logged for auditing. You haven't really done OpSec have you? There is very little absolutism in defining who gets access to what data. In fact barring nations that have historically shared data with their governments is exactly one step closer to how you would achieve this.…

> "You haven't really done OpSec have you? There is very little absolutism in defining who gets access to what data. In fact barring nations that have historically shared data with their governments is exactly one step closer to how you would achieve this." When was the last time you've contracted for a serious client? When it comes to tech - you don't implement "OpSec" by blanket banning hiring Chinese/Russian indiv…

> When was the last time you've contracted for a serious client?

Uhh, today? I have about 20 on-going contracts with "serious clients", which include manufacturers, distributors, software companies, etc. What's your point?

> When it comes to tech - you don't implement "OpSec" by blanket banning hiring Chinese/Russian individuals. Disregarding your bizarre definition of "OpSec"

Banning hiring from countries isn't an exclusively isolated tactic for executing OpSec...I'm not sure why you implied that.

> Those companies actually invest into background checks, have dedicated security teams, are investing into locking networks down and improving monitoring.

Those companies all have physical presences in those countries. Gitlab does not. BIG DIFFERENCE.

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#472

Post by pinkfoot » Mon, Nov 04, 2019, 5:53 PM UTC

GenericsMotors wrote: post #469

DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read the GP comment, which says this is a good first step and then muses about expanding the ban to Green Card holders: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21438366 I then suggest you edit out your erroneous personal attacks.

You seem very focused on China only...why is that? GP's "musing" equally affects Russians. Or are Russians not something your ideology would allow you to defend? Regardless, the GP does raise a valid point that if you have family living under the heel of a totalitarian dictatorship they can and will be used as leverage. Your whinging won't change that fact, and it has nothing to do with them being Chinese (or Russian…

What about second order effects?

If I ran state security for a poor African dictatorship, I would find all successful expatriates in the .US/.EU/.AU and sell their details to other nasty outfits and offer to "apply my heel" to their families for a fee.

And the optics would be on my side.

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#473

Post by pm90 » Mon, Nov 04, 2019, 5:57 PM UTC

dtwest wrote: post #409

coldtea wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The first one is flattening China with nuclear weapons (conventional war is impossible to win) which is obviously inacceptable, the second one is totally excluding China from any and all international trade. The world had had more invasions, interventions, toppling of legitimate governments, etc, from the US than from China. And while the US keeps democracy internally (unlike China) they have supported all kinds of…

China has a long history of war. The US doesn't even have a long history. Your historical view is zoomed in too far. All large nation states are guilty of aggression, that's how you become a large nation state.

> China has a long history of war. The US doesn't even have a long history.

Please don't move the goalposts. We're talking about the current State of China, which came into being in the mid 20th century, and is thus a lot younger than the current US state which traces its founding to around 1776. By that measure, the US has been involved in far, far more invasions and wars than the Chinese state.

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#474

Post by pm90 » Mon, Nov 04, 2019, 6:04 PM UTC

munmaek wrote: post #331

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you in USA? Should other countries refuse to employ USA citizens because of actions of the government - things like pulling out of Syria to enable the Turkish murder of the Kurds to continue. >China has been using our money ... The best way is to vote with your money then?

Well, the US government wont make my family disappear if I don’t cooperate, for starters. I find it intellectually dishonest to compare the USA’s foreign policy with a dictatorship government that forces compliance through threats on local relatives, etc.

> the US government wont make my family disappear if I don’t cooperate,

Don't be so sure of that. If you hold valuable information on a foreign state, you will be accused and quickly convicted under various national security laws if you don't co-operate.

You severely under-estimate the power of a state, especially one as powerful as the US. If they want something from you, they will get it. Have you broken a minor law? Maybe you've been stellar, but some member of your family hasn't. The likelihood of being in an entire family with spotless records is very very low.

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#475

Post by istinspring » Mon, Nov 04, 2019, 6:07 PM UTC

First they came for the Russians, and I did not speak out — Because I was not a Russian.

Then they came for the Chinese, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Chinese.

...

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#476

Post by munmaek » Mon, Nov 04, 2019, 6:14 PM UTC

Aunche wrote: post #447

munmaek wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...because of the PRC. This whole discussion is because of the PRC, and having ties to family members living under the PRC.

"I'm not against hiring black people, just those who live in areas controlled by gangs or have family members who live in these areas."

This is an apples to oranges comparison.

The ticket raised on gitlab is specifically about Chinese and Russian nationals, but this would also apply to Australians (they can be compelled, legally, to build backdoors upon request of the government). If I were in charge of a non-trivial company I certainly would not hire an australian national.

This same exact argument would apply for a white person from China who has family or other assets in China, and thus has leverage that can be used against them by the current totalitarian regime.

If the US government enacted a law similar to Australia where we could be compelled to build secret backdoors, then foreign companies probably wouldn't hire an American either.

This really has little to do with race, and everything to do with risk and governments. We would still be discussing a ban on hiring Chinese nationals even if China -weren't- almost completely homogeneous in race; it's basically irrelevant.

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#477

Post by pm90 » Mon, Nov 04, 2019, 6:14 PM UTC

yorwba wrote: post #349

mschuster91 wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> The third way (trade brings democracy) has been disproven over the last decades. This is often claimed, but I fail to see the disproof. The standard of living in China has improved considerably as a result of trade. That new prosperity means that now more people can afford to support journalists, lawyers and activists working to expose and curtail abuses of power. This is not limited to underground organizations or…

I'm sorry you're being down voted despite making some very cogent points.

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#478

Post by munmaek » Mon, Nov 04, 2019, 6:22 PM UTC

pm90 wrote: post #474

munmaek wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the US government wont make my family disappear if I don’t cooperate, for starters. I find it intellectually dishonest to compare the USA’s foreign policy with a dictatorship government that forces compliance through threats on local relatives, etc.

> the US government wont make my family disappear if I don’t cooperate, Don't be so sure of that. If you hold valuable information on a foreign state, you will be accused and quickly convicted under various national security laws if you don't co-operate. You severely under-estimate the power of a state, especially one as powerful as the US. If they want something from you, they will get it. Have you broken a minor la…

Even in that example, the US government would not make my family disappear. Please cite any reputable sources that you have to the contrary, because anything else is a spurious claim. I'm not going to argue over various conspiracy theories.

Corruption and unfair things exist in every single country, but we do have the right to freedom of press, speech, assembly, and due process.

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#479

Post by hungryhobo » Mon, Nov 04, 2019, 6:27 PM UTC

computerex wrote: post #318

blaesus wrote: post #225

I am Chinese living in China. Nationalism is on the rise lately in China, not just for domestic reasons, but also as an reaction to nationalistic moves from "the West" like this one. It's a recurring theme, not just in governmental propaganda, but also in daily conversations, that "the West" would talk about fairness and justice then commit blatant discrimination and double standards. As a founder of a tech company b…

Nationalism has always been high in China ever since the CCP took control. Not being a nationalist would be a good way to suddenly disappear off the face of the Earth. China has always had double standards. They make it hell for U.S companies to do business there. The only thing that has changed is that the U.S has started pushing back somewhat as of late, but things are still currently in favor of China. When China…

Complains about double standards in western media,points to double standards in Chinese media.

Whataboutism?

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#480

Post by munmaek » Mon, Nov 04, 2019, 6:29 PM UTC

DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #426

munmaek wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same argument would apply if the person was white and had many relatives in China. Or real estate, or other leverage that can be used against them. You can’t ignore the fact that the PRC uses those things as leverage against people abroad in order to get information. Until that stops, what are companies and governments supposed to do? Roll over and allow espionage because we’re so tolerant?

I could use the exact same argument to propose banning Americans from GitLab. I'd also have much better empirical grounds for doing so, given how much is known about the extent of US espionage. There's a growing hysteria in the US about China, which is leading to increasing signs of discrimination and harassment of Chinese people in the US. This sort of demonization of an entire country and the politics behind it (pr…

I don't buy it. Yes there's a growing hysteria of China, but that's due to their government. It's not against the people in general. (Yes, yes, there's always an example of someone being racist/xenophobic. My response is there are always idiots who are racist/xenophobic. Citing them as an example of the populace at large is just lazy.)

People don't care about people from the ROC, aka Taiwan, aka China*. If people in our extremely polarized political environment are uniting on this, it's because it's a Serious Issue that needs to be addressed.