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Should employers be blind to private beliefs? (Richard Dawkins)

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Re: Should employers be blind to private beliefs? (Richard Dawkins)

#11
Going back to the topic at hand, I am a little uncomfortable NOT being able to take into account someone's beliefs (and therefore values) when making a decision to employ them. Difficult to make the point without going to extremes, but the bottom line is that I believe organizations have (and should continue to have ) the right to direct their culture. If someone isnt a "cultural" fit because they believe in things that would aleniate them from their peers and clients, and therefore contribute to an unproductive work environment, why is it a bad to disqualify them on those grounds?

I get the slippery slope of discrimination but that's not what this is about. I'm talking about the slippery slope of not allowing someone to making a hiring decision on the grounds that the way people live their lives and their values affect their ability to be productive members of your organization.

Interested to hear what you guys think.

Re: Should employers be blind to private beliefs? (Richard Dawkins)

#12
A good scientist should be agnostic. In some ways, believing something accepted to be false in the scientific community is preferable to actually believing what is accepted to be true in the scientific community. If everyone starts with the same assumptions then the same assumptions are propagated through the literature without critical analysis.

And sometimes, it may even be worthwhile to look at Mars with the eye of someone who believes it to be a giant purple mongoose. So long as in your work you recognize and promote the most likely possibilities, what you believe to be true regardless of evidence is, at worst, a tool that can aid one in thinking outside the box.

Personally I believe the universe and the Earth are many times over older than 10000 years. The evidence is so overwhelming it's hard to understand anyone who thinks otherwise. But I feel like the person who believes the Earth is 10000 years old is a better scientist than the person who knows it to be an incontrovertible fact that the Earth is much older than 10000 years.

Re: Should employers be blind to private beliefs? (Richard Dawkins)

#13

What if they believe non-mainstream cosmological theories? Where does orthodoxy enforcement stop?

They are most likely still going to use a scientific approach to trying to prove the non-mainstream theory, so it's not really a valid comparison.

Re: Should employers be blind to private beliefs? (Richard Dawkins)

#14
post #8
post #4

The title of this HN submission doesn't match the title on the article. Dawkins doesn't seem to be arguing in favor of firing all creationist astronomers; rather, only those whose religious beliefs conflict with their astronomy work. Not all creationist views are identical. [Edit: HN submission title has been revised. Thanks!]

You must have read a completely different article than I did, because as far as I can tell you are entirely mistaken about the content. "A senior colleague at Oxford told me of an astronomer who, on religious grounds, believes the universe is less than ten thousand years old...He publishes mathematical papers in learned journals, taking it for granted that the universe is nearly fourteen billion years old and using t…

One might also interpret the phrase "object to employing him" as being about a reluctance to let him through the selection process as a new hire (which is the context set by the question raised in the case of Martin Gaskell). In other words, it doesn't have to mean that Dawkins would have an employee terminated on those grounds. Since Dawkins isn't here to comment on that distinction, it's not fair to put the question of firing in the headline when it's not explicitly discussed in the article.

Re: Should employers be blind to private beliefs? (Richard Dawkins)

#15

A good scientist should be agnostic. In some ways, believing something accepted to be false in the scientific community is preferable to actually believing what is accepted to be true in the scientific community. If everyone starts with the same assumptions then the same assumptions are propagated through the literature without critical analysis. And sometimes, it may even be worthwhile to look at Mars with the eye o…

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Re: Should employers be blind to private beliefs? (Richard Dawkins)

#16

This obsession with unearthing people's private beliefs and actively using them as grounds to discriminate against them, seems quite Orwellian to me. Why not just evaluate how well an employee does the job she is paid to do, and not worry about the ideas she expresses outside of work, or the activities she engages in? Dawkins simply seems to be looking for ways of making life more difficult for religious people. If t…

There's too much grey to make this black and white. What would you say to a closeted gay politician pushing anti-gay legislation? Would you not consider that person a fraud, just like someone saying their research is based on the universe being 13 billion years old when they don't really believe that?

Re: Should employers be blind to private beliefs? (Richard Dawkins)

#17

What if they believe non-mainstream cosmological theories? Where does orthodoxy enforcement stop?

Arguably, the whole article is in response to this very idea. The idea is succinctly rephrased in his article (as a third party quotation) here:

"If Gaskell has produced sound, peer-reviewed literature of high quality then I see no reason for denying him the position, even if he believes Mars is the egg of a [giant purple Mongoose]"

Re: Should employers be blind to private beliefs? (Richard Dawkins)

#18

What if they believe non-mainstream cosmological theories? Where does orthodoxy enforcement stop?

That's a very good question. If you haven't done so already, may I suggest reading the book Kicking the Sacred Cow by James Hogan. He deals with this question all throughout his book.

Re: Should employers be blind to private beliefs? (Richard Dawkins)

#20

  Even if a doctor's belief in the stork theory of
  reproduction is technically irrelevant to his competence
  as an eye surgeon, it tells you something about him. It
  is revealing. It is relevant in a general way to whether
  we would wish him to treat us or teach us. A patient
  could reasonably shrink from entrusting her eyes to a
  doctor whose beliefs (admittedly in the apparently
  unrelated field of obstetrics) are so cataclysmically
  disconnected from reality.
This statement seems to work when applied to something like "babies come from storks", but it generalizes poorly. There are simply too many incorrect beliefs floating around; it's difficult to find someone who has resisted all of them. Would you refuse treatment from an ophthalmologist who believed:

1. The seasons are caused by Earth approaching and receding from the Sun?

2. Fixed-wing aircraft fly because air moves over and under the wing at the same rate?

3. Thomas Edison invented the light bulb?

All of these are just as wrong as stork-babies or creationism, and all are just as relevant (ie, not at all) to ophthalmology. I don't demand that my doctor rigorously examine every belief they hold, merely the ones related to surgery. Frankly, a creationist surgeon is much less worrying than a surgeon who believes wi-fi causes cancer.

  My colleague takes the view that this YEC is entitled to a job
  as a professor of astronomy, because he keeps his private
  beliefs to himself while at work. I take the opposite view. I
  would object to employing him, on the grounds that his
  research papers, and his lectures to students, are filled with
  what he personally believes to be falsehoods. He is a fake, a
  fraud, a charlatan, drawing a salary for a job that could have
  gone to an honest astronomer. Moreover, I would regard his
  equanimity in holding two diametrically opposing views
  simultaneously in his head as a revealing indicator that there
  is something wrong with his head. 
There's an idiom that goes something like "reality is what keeps happening even if you don't believe in it". If a creationist is able to perform correct science, I see no reason to dismiss it out of hand. Especially considering the wide variety of creationist beliefs now extant in the US -- even if he believes Earth was created six thousand years ago, he may be willing to concede that the Universe is roughly fourteen billion years old.
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