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Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

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Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you in USA? Should other countries refuse to employ USA citizens because of actions of the government - things like pulling out of Syria to enable the Turkish murder of the Kurds to continue. >China has been using our money ... The best way is to vote with your money then?

Well, the US government wont make my family disappear if I don’t cooperate, for starters. I find it intellectually dishonest to compare the USA’s foreign policy with a dictatorship government that forces compliance through threats on local relatives, etc.

> I find it intellectually dishonest to compare the USA’s foreign policy with a dictatorship government

... yeah, about that... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Hemisphere_Institute_f...

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you in USA? Should other countries refuse to employ USA citizens because of actions of the government - things like pulling out of Syria to enable the Turkish murder of the Kurds to continue. >China has been using our money ... The best way is to vote with your money then?

Well, the US government wont make my family disappear if I don’t cooperate, for starters. I find it intellectually dishonest to compare the USA’s foreign policy with a dictatorship government that forces compliance through threats on local relatives, etc.

This is a thread where Americans are debating whether we should "flatten" a billion people via nuclear bombardment because they don't govern themselves the way we think they should.

I'd pick a different spot to call us morally superior. Like, any other thread.

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#373

I am Chinese living in China. Nationalism is on the rise lately in China, not just for domestic reasons, but also as an reaction to nationalistic moves from "the West" like this one. It's a recurring theme, not just in governmental propaganda, but also in daily conversations, that "the West" would talk about fairness and justice then commit blatant discrimination and double standards. As a founder of a tech company b…

Nationalism has always been high in China ever since the CCP took control. Not being a nationalist would be a good way to suddenly disappear off the face of the Earth. China has always had double standards. They make it hell for U.S companies to do business there. The only thing that has changed is that the U.S has started pushing back somewhat as of late, but things are still currently in favor of China. When China…

> Nationalism has always been high in China ever since the CCP took control.

Or since the Boxer Rebellion.

Or since before the Opium Wars. And probably even much earlier.

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might have misread the issue at hand, this is not discriminating on country of birth, but country of residence. You can choose not to continue living in the above mentioned countries, and this would no longer be a problem it seems.

Ultimately it affects the developers who are born in China and Russia as well. Not everyone can afford migrating to a "white listed" country due to various reasons like family, friends and other commitments.

How is that different from any other job? Unless they support remote work, which most don't, is it not discrimination for a job to only consider people who are willing to move to city X or country Y?

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#375
post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a chinese, this kind of comment makes me hate the west even more. I have no control over my government. Zero. 0. Do you understand the concept of 0? Thats the amount of influence I have over any government matter. And you people being racist pos because there is nothing I can do about my gov. Wtf do you want?

Who is being racist here? Criticizing a government apparatus isn’t racist. I don’t know why every single time a westerner criticizes the PRC, they act like we hate all Chinese people. Nobody here has a problem with Chinese people in general. Hopefully all of us can separate a nation’s people from their government... The problem is with the PRC’s government.

"Nobody here has a problem with Chinese people in general"

The link this whole discussion is about is about banning Chinese people. Not the government, not even people that work for the government, just "Chinese people in general"

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#376
I wrote another comment arguing that this proposal was both racist and discriminatory, which got flagged and deleted without explanation, presumably because I worded it in such a way as to give an example that might resonate more with Americans by using examples of specific groups of people that have experienced oppression in the US. In the interests of quality discussion on HN, I'm going to make another attempt but in a way which is hopefully less likely to be misinterpreted.

There are employment laws which prevent companies from discriminating against people based on factors such as race, sexual orientation, religion, physical appearance, age, marital status, and other things over which they either have no control or which are not relevant to their job. These laws are in place for good reason and most people (myself included) support them.

It is my belief that a company policy prohibiting the hiring of people based on any of the above attributes would be wrong, and probably illegal (depending on the jurisdiction).

The question then comes down to whether refusing to hire someone based on either their nationality or the country in which they live (in the case of a remote company) is wrong in the same sense as the above factors. My argument is yes. The fact that someone lives in China or Russia does not, by itself, make them an untrustworthy person, any more than someone living in the United States, Germany, Japan, or the UK.

At the request of several customers, GitLab is proposing a policy which discriminates against people based on their naionality/country of residence, which I would argue is almost (if not equally) as bad as discrimination based on the other factors I've mentioned, and should be opposed for the same reasons as a policy which prohibited hires who were of a particular race or sexual orientation.

If anyone wants to flag this comment, you are of course free to do so. But I would much prefer, and I think we could all benefit from, a coherent discussion of the flaws in my argument.

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the US government wont make my family disappear if I don’t cooperate, for starters. I find it intellectually dishonest to compare the USA’s foreign policy with a dictatorship government that forces compliance through threats on local relatives, etc.

This is a thread where Americans are debating whether we should "flatten" a billion people via nuclear bombardment because they don't govern themselves the way we think they should. I'd pick a different spot to call us morally superior. Like, any other thread.

Are we? I’ve seen a reasonable discussion so far on policy and ethics. There will always be trolls.

I never said anyone was completely superior. But in this specific case.. we are, because American citizens (and their families) don’t disappear for criticizing their government or for refusing to spy on other countries.

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#378

I am Chinese living in China. Nationalism is on the rise lately in China, not just for domestic reasons, but also as an reaction to nationalistic moves from "the West" like this one. It's a recurring theme, not just in governmental propaganda, but also in daily conversations, that "the West" would talk about fairness and justice then commit blatant discrimination and double standards. As a founder of a tech company b…

Nationalism has always been high in China ever since the CCP took control. Not being a nationalist would be a good way to suddenly disappear off the face of the Earth. China has always had double standards. They make it hell for U.S companies to do business there. The only thing that has changed is that the U.S has started pushing back somewhat as of late, but things are still currently in favor of China. When China…

Assuming you aren’t native Chinese or don’t have lots of friends in China, you don’t seem to understand what the parent said about nationalism rises. No China’s nationalism WAS NOT this high before, (the parade etc) you saw before is organized and it’s actually quite small considering the scale of China. Common people were normally cynical and only act patriotic at occasions where they really have to. Things are freaking different now with certified news from the US regarding trade war and the fact Trump can’t win the trade war. Normal people this time really become nationalist

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, technically it is discrimination, but not racism. I.e. you can still hire a Japanese developer, and with a Chinese regime change you might be able to hire Chinese developers. However, federal law prohibits discrimination based on national origin. This is a touchy subject, but maybe this no longer makes sense? As burfrog pointed out, a Chinese employee living in America isn't free from Chinese control; the gov't…

It doesn’t matter. As long as a security clearance isn’t required, discriminating based on notational origin is a big no no from an ethical perspective, even if it was legal. I hope we learned our lesson during WW2.

Depends "national security" is much more than defence industries back when I worked BT the team leaders on some projects where getting positively vetted for SC clearance - That's top secret in US terms.

Arguably now the FANGS are now CNI - which is going to suck if your on a H1B or Green Card.

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are a citizen of a state that is known to coerce its people to work for it, you are not an individual, you're a state-level actor. If you are known to directly or indirectly provide assets to a government and said assets are a critical part of the infrastructure, you're responsible for the safety of the government in your dealings. An American company refusing to recruit people from China is just the US govern…

> If you are a citizen of a state that is known to coerce its people to work for it, you are not an individual, you're a state-level actor. You are putting collective blame on a billion people for the actions of their dictatorial government. This is not a reasonable position to hold in a supposedly enlightened society, it is rather just a thinly veiled excuse for run-of-the-mill xenophobia.

Nobody blames anyone here. The point is that anyone who lives (or has family) in a dictatorship can be easily blackmailed by its own state, with no legal recourse.
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