A CS degree is better than teaching yourself how to code? • Hacker News Board

Re: A CS degree is better than teaching yourself how to code?

#261

Post by amursft » Sun, Nov 03, 2019, 3:06 PM UTC

This is a bizarre article because in some sense getting a computer science degree has advantages to teaching yourself to code, but I don't think the article really says any of them and instead pinpoints other things that as a self-taught coder were not an issue for me: teamwork, time management, people skills, translating skills, negotiating skills, etc.

What I think I missed in a CS degree was study of lower level fundamentals of operating systems, compilers, databases, algorithms. Things that you don't necessarily get exposed to at a deep level building out a Ruby on Rails web app. And teaching yourself to code you can still seek those out to, that was just my particular path into software development.

I think the article could be strengthened by mentioning and focusing on some of those things.

Re: A CS degree is better than teaching yourself how to code?

#262

Post by rossdavidh » Sun, Nov 03, 2019, 3:08 PM UTC

So, I have two engineering degrees, but not a CS degree, so I'm kind of an intermediate case between the CS degree and the self-taught programmer, but closer to the latter.

The only one of the advantages listed in this article that seems true to me, is the Prestige of having a CS degree. There are plenty of employers who will require a degree, and a few which prioritize a CS degree.

In general, CS majors spend their first few years unlearning all of the theoretical constructs they were taught in college. 90+% of the programming which needs to be done in the real world is CRUD with a few special features. Rarely are those special features related to anything taught in school, they are usually horrible hacks that are related to the legacy system your new system has to connect to.

There are, of course, exceptions, and for a few employers a CS degree is a big advantage. But, unfortunately, much of the teamwork and communication skills which the author lists s advantages of a CS degree, are again something where the CS major has to get over their schooling, and learn to communicate in the language that everyone else on the team understands.

Which, of course, nearly every CS major learns to do, they're smart people. But the only thing they really get out of the CS degree that matters in the real world, is the prestige, in 90+% of cases.

Re: A CS degree is better than teaching yourself how to code?

#263

Post by vitro » Sun, Nov 03, 2019, 3:12 PM UTC

As a uni dropout myself and regretting it now a bit, I've always seen university education as getting a map.

You go to the school and get a map with all the roads, one-way routes, walks, parks, etc.

If you learn by yourself, your map may not contain some of those routes and you may not know that you can actually go some other way or you may go a way that has a dead end.

On the other hand, it is just a map. You have to walk it yourself and university cannot make you walk all the map. But at least you know (almost) all the paths and their requirements.

Re: A CS degree is better than teaching yourself how to code?

#264

Post by itronitron » Sun, Nov 03, 2019, 3:13 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #62

czbond wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I - disagree here. My CompSci background gets me called in to deal with the hard stuff that others skip bc the theoretical parts of CS are not present. As mentioned in a further comment below - I can understand why code is slow (eg: BigO for cpu or memory), what structures and algorithms to use in different scenarios (Data Structures & algos), how things are working (Computer Architecture, Programming Languages [theo…

I’ll agree with your disagree. Other than APCS in high school, and some discrete math and number theory in college, I learned to program myself. By reading a lot I picked up most of the things on your list above. But where I really perceive my limitations from lack of formal education is where math comes into play. I get the gist of how cryptography or machine learning works, but I don’t think I’d be able to work in…

>> I never developed the intuition for the relevant math

in my opinion, the best way to develop an intuition for the math is through manual calculation (by hand) and by implementing the algorithms/math in code, wax on wax off.

Since everyone making a living in those areas is reusing libraries now many people's knowledge is limited to things they have heard repeated, they don't necessarily have an underlying intuition about the math.

Re: A CS degree is better than teaching yourself how to code?

#265

Post by sundayedition » Sun, Nov 03, 2019, 3:15 PM UTC

One might also argue a degree in Journalism or English is better than teaching yourself to write persuasive arguments by blogging

Re: A CS degree is better than teaching yourself how to code?

#266

Post by nottorp » Sun, Nov 03, 2019, 3:15 PM UTC

My 2 cents:

The CS degree ain't going to teach you how to code, you'll have do that yourself anyway.

What the CS degree will help you with is handling high complexity and/or harder problems. Which can be invaluable in anything except the most simple software.

So... ideally you'd get both :)

Re: A CS degree is better than teaching yourself how to code?

#267

Post by lkitching » Sun, Nov 03, 2019, 3:15 PM UTC

rossdavidh wrote: post #262

So, I have two engineering degrees, but not a CS degree, so I'm kind of an intermediate case between the CS degree and the self-taught programmer, but closer to the latter. The only one of the advantages listed in this article that seems true to me, is the Prestige of having a CS degree. There are plenty of employers who will require a degree, and a few which prioritize a CS degree. In general, CS majors spend their…

> CS majors spend their first few years unlearning all of the theoretical constructs they were taught in college

Do you have any examples of these theoretical constructs? I find most of the things I learned in my CS degree useful for commerical software development and can't think of anything I had to 'unlearn'.

Re: A CS degree is better than teaching yourself how to code?

#268

Post by 52-6F-62 » Sun, Nov 03, 2019, 3:16 PM UTC

mikelevins wrote: post #134

stevekemp wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It'll get complicated talking about age too, because we don't want to pretend older people are "better", or risk turning into an agism-in-technology rant, but it has to be said that the older self-taught people probably started with 8-bit home-computers back in the early 80s. At that time there was no formal courses, and their knowledge probably covers everything from assembly language all the way up - because most p…

This is exactly me. In 1984, when the Mac came out, I was a starving artist in Denver. I had a lot of college at that point, but no degree. I had foolishly wanted to learn everything interesting, so I had a year of art school and three years of coursework in biology, physics, and mathematics, but I was working in labs and retail by day, and by night as part of a songwriting partnership that ultimately went nowhere. I…

Any knowledge of whether Apple still cultivates and encourages personal curiosity and self-started learning in the same way these days?

That sounds idyllic.

Re: A CS degree is better than teaching yourself how to code?

#269

Post by sundayedition » Sun, Nov 03, 2019, 3:16 PM UTC

vitro wrote: post #263

As a uni dropout myself and regretting it now a bit, I've always seen university education as getting a map. You go to the school and get a map with all the roads, one-way routes, walks, parks, etc. If you learn by yourself, your map may not contain some of those routes and you may not know that you can actually go some other way or you may go a way that has a dead end. On the other hand, it is just a map. You have t…

That's a good analogy, I think of it as more of a key. It will open doors that aren't otherwise available.

Re: A CS degree is better than teaching yourself how to code?

#270

Post by mlthoughts2018 » Sun, Nov 03, 2019, 3:17 PM UTC

mathgladiator wrote: post #85

BeetleB wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The courses you list are mostly very necessary for well-rounded knowledge and ability to synthesize research and share knowledge (like in a team project), I can only repeat what I said: Look - I think I gained quite a bit from the well rounded education I got. And my general advice is that people should go for it. However, I also have the reality of experience: Most of my peers who have degrees are poor at writing,…

To add, as much as I love university... it was mostly a waste of time for me. Paradoxically, the humanities are now more interesting because I am older and seeking to understand what the fuck is reality. I'm of the opinion we need to split school in a way where young people focus first on how to be useful, then be useful for a period of time. From here, humanities are more relevant once one has enough wealth and time…

Focusing exclusively on how to be useful to corporations or governments will cost society too much. We have to also focus on how to be useful to effect change, exemplify upstanding moral and ethical behavior, question authorities, etc. How to be good friends, good parents, good civic participants. How to express sympathy, how to understand cultures and ways of life different from our own, and we need to start this learning process early in life!

If someone doesn’t start undertaking study of the humanities until “one has enough wealth and time to appreciate it” this would be a disastrous outcome for the future of hunanity, let alone also frankly something of a wasted life for people who pursue it in that order.