A CS degree is better than teaching yourself how to code? • Hacker News Board

Re: A CS degree is better than teaching yourself how to code?

#21

Post by not2personal » Sun, Nov 03, 2019, 2:35 AM UTC

leed25d wrote: post #16

hirundo wrote: post #7

Why teaching yourself to code is better than a CS degree * Far cheaper, no debt accumulated * Follow your bliss in learning what you want, but still with the option to absorb the best of the CS textbooks. * Not compelled to learn languages and platforms behind the curve. * Less able to lean on teammates, you learn to solve problems more independently. * There's no illusion that your education has an end date, and tha…

You missed a few: * Poster candidate for Dunning-Kruger * Cheap and fast but low quality * Single pointed focus. More likely to be a one-language savant * Degrees are for chumps: this is a delusion.

Much like Apple products, when people go to college they feel the need to defend that idea to the death. As surely they couldn't have been so silly to pay 100k to have someone stand in a big room and read the internet to them.

Re: A CS degree is better than teaching yourself how to code?

#22

Post by chrisco255 » Sun, Nov 03, 2019, 2:36 AM UTC

pcmoney wrote: post #8

I am sorry but no. All of that can be learned during your first internship where you get paid instead of paying. I would argue college delays maturity and does not foster it. Hanging out with a bunch of people that are the same age, same life stage, etc. doesn't exactly add life experience. Continuing to do "hoop-jumping" work just like we all did in high school also doesn't seem to be novel. Perhaps its the keggers…

I don't think the article made the best points in favor of a CS degree. I went to a top 40 program and I took a lot of CS and hardware classes and what I did learn, crucially, that is more difficult in the workplace, is how complex systems work and how to approach complex systems. Now, you could accidentally learn that on the job, or intentionally if you choose to, but you can also sort of skate by in a fog of ignorance for many years without ever learning the fundamentals. But look, we learned how RAM works, how networking and IP works, how to build a peer to peer file sharing network, how to design a simple microprocessor, how operating systems and threads and processes work, many of the fundamental data structures and algorithms that software is built on, etc. Learning all that provides a very strong foundation for learning any other software system. That's very hard to do without a program like a good CS curriculum.

Re: A CS degree is better than teaching yourself how to code?

#23

Post by tempsy » Sun, Nov 03, 2019, 2:36 AM UTC

A CS degree helps you get an interview. That's pretty much it.

Re: A CS degree is better than teaching yourself how to code?

#24

Post by bdamm » Sun, Nov 03, 2019, 2:38 AM UTC

jacobolus wrote: post #12

mav3rick wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many self learners have no clue about processes, threads, memory allocation. Nor do they care about algorithmic complexity. They end up using a list for a map etc.i.e. there are foundational gaps in their knowledge. A CS program ensures that there is at least an attempt to build a foundation.

> Many self learners have no clue about processes, threads, memory allocation. This all also applies to “many CS graduates”. My systems-programmer wife has given up asking basic systems questions to new grads in technical interviews because she just expects to get blank stares at this point. Stuff that was expected knowledge of anyone programming computers in any capacity up through the 1990s is now a mystical secret…

It is possible to scrape through a program without much curiosity or real understanding. Thus defining a clear gap in the workforce that those with CS degrees (and who actually paid attention) can fulfill. Specifically, building the tools, algorithms, and systems that the code monkeys will add features to. Which part of the food chain one wants to show up in has surprisingly little to do with how much one gets paid, but since it doesn't matter, I know where I'd rather be.

Re: A CS degree is better than teaching yourself how to code?

#25

Post by vonseel » Sun, Nov 03, 2019, 2:38 AM UTC

rvz wrote: post #13

> These skills are often gained through completing an undergraduate degree. Disagree. An apprentice or even a bootcamp grad can learn these skills in their current job or in a online MOOC course without a degree. What the author fails to mention is the amount of student debt that comes with the CS degree. In some cases a CS degree isn't worth the debt if the curriculum doesn't align with the market or if the universi…

Beyond all that, a lot of people already have an unrelated degree. Going back to school for CS makes even less sense if you already have a college degree, even in an unrelated field, and have some coding knowledge or job experience.

Re: A CS degree is better than teaching yourself how to code?

#26

Post by newguy1234 » Sun, Nov 03, 2019, 2:38 AM UTC

learc83 wrote: post #18

rvz wrote: post #13

> These skills are often gained through completing an undergraduate degree. Disagree. An apprentice or even a bootcamp grad can learn these skills in their current job or in a online MOOC course without a degree. What the author fails to mention is the amount of student debt that comes with the CS degree. In some cases a CS degree isn't worth the debt if the curriculum doesn't align with the market or if the universi…

>can be learned online for free Can is the key word here. Most people don't have the discipline to go through a CS curriculum on their own.

From my experience, if people don't have the discipline to self-study some specific topic then they'll have a hard time in CS. The problem is CS is constantly changing and you need to be routinely upgrading your skills as time progresses to stay competitive in the marketplace.

I would even go as far as saying that being able to self-study on your own is an essential life skill, up there with learning how to read/write. That's how important it is. You need to learn how to do it. It is important. Personally, I think overtime it will become easier to self-study topics due to advancements in edtech technology.

Re: A CS degree is better than teaching yourself how to code?

#27

Post by nashashmi » Sun, Nov 03, 2019, 2:40 AM UTC

It's funny the article never mentions learning actual code and learning essential algorithms as part of what makes CS degrees a good choice.

What it does mention:

Struggling as a community; learning independently plus from people who are learning independently of you; networking with people who are committed to the same career path as you; and confidence that comes from having a degree. (I'm paraphrasing extensively)

Since this is something that all college degrees offer especially under bad professors and terrible academic programs, I think the lesson here is heavy goalpoints combined with little guidance makes for successful students and career paths when backed with prestigious degrees.

Re: A CS degree is better than teaching yourself how to code?

#28

Post by wrnr » Sun, Nov 03, 2019, 2:41 AM UTC

tanilama wrote: post #14

A CS degree means better HR screening pass rate. Isn't this obvious...

True story, I am self-taught but have some impressive projects listed on my resume, some even open-source. It's more often than once that I've finally get an interview just to learn that the recruiter has removed these when anonymising my resume.

Re: A CS degree is better than teaching yourself how to code?

#29

Post by mav3rick » Sun, Nov 03, 2019, 2:41 AM UTC

jacobolus wrote: post #12

mav3rick wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many self learners have no clue about processes, threads, memory allocation. Nor do they care about algorithmic complexity. They end up using a list for a map etc.i.e. there are foundational gaps in their knowledge. A CS program ensures that there is at least an attempt to build a foundation.

> Many self learners have no clue about processes, threads, memory allocation. This all also applies to “many CS graduates”. My systems-programmer wife has given up asking basic systems questions to new grads in technical interviews because she just expects to get blank stares at this point. Stuff that was expected knowledge of anyone programming computers in any capacity up through the 1990s is now a mystical secret…

Like I said a CS program at least attempts to bridge this gap. Courses are there. Most self learners are unaware or just want to learn React.

Re: A CS degree is better than teaching yourself how to code?

#30

Post by sircastor » Sun, Nov 03, 2019, 2:41 AM UTC

blondin wrote: post #19

these have nothing to do with coding skills! any degree will get you those skills. project planning, deadlines, networking, dealing with people, etc. college will always give you access to people. what is missing is basically easy & sometimes free access to knowledge. god i miss having access to nearly any library and all these books, and all these publications you can print for free. i still have a trove of PDFs on…

I'm a self-taught programmer and finishing my BS in Software Engineering right now. Something I never appreciated in my career or my first go at college was the value of access to academic papers. There is so much knowledge available in academia that's locked away from the general public. Quite frankly a lot of that knowledge ends up duplicates effort because you can't get to it otherwise.