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GitHub tries to quell employee anger over its ICE contract

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Re: GitHub tries to quell employee anger over its ICE contract

#591

Post by Thorrez »

nemothekid wrote: post #581
manfredo wrote: post #486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're misrepresenting the argument of people who don't think developers should interfere with the usages of their product. The most compelling arguments I found is that just because we happen to work in a field that lets us exert our influence over society doesn't make our moral sensibilities any better than the rest of society. What us privileged few who work in technology see as using our position of influ…

> make the deliberate decision that refraining from exercising that power is the morally optimal choice Don't you think the FSF exists as a huge counterpoint to this? The FSF deliberate makes the decision that copyleft is the morally optimal choice and forces others to comply - and I'd imagine more developers view the FSF as a good thing.

It forces developers to comply, but it doesn't impose any restrictions on the users of the software. In fact it forces developers to not impose any restrictions on the users of the software.

Re: GitHub tries to quell employee anger over its ICE contract

#592

Post by dragonwriter »

Teknoman117 wrote: post #583

In response to a lot of the comments here, isn't the whole "people with power have the moral imperative to defend (their view of) morality" how the US got into the "America, World Police" problem in the first place?

> isn't the whole "people with power have the moral imperative to defend (their view of) morality" how the US got into the "America, World Police" problem in the first place?

Since that didn't actually happen (the US has never been particularly enthusiastic about applying power internationally for any reason except it's own geopolitical interest, and has never been particularly shy about ignoring moral constraints to do so—though it's often struck with moral pangs after the fact), I don't think any explanation for why it happened can be accepted.

The “America, World Police” problem is a fiction railed against by advocates of even more aggressively amoral foreign policy, not something that actually concretely exists or existed.

Re: GitHub tries to quell employee anger over its ICE contract

#593

Post by verall »

refurb wrote: post #528
verall wrote: post #515

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The current administration has been crystal-clear that it intends to reduce legal and illegal immigration through all means available. One of these means is lengthening the asylum-seeking process and requirements. Another is reducing the allowed number of successful asylum seekers through informal quotas. The current administration has done both. They are intentionally gumming up the asylum system in order to make go…

What you see as “lengthening the process”, others see as actually aligning the process with the laws. HN loves to rail against the corrupt H1-B system, but apparently actually getting asylum seekers is amoral. What would be more honest is to say “I don’t like cheap tech labor, so therefore clamping down on H1-Bs is good.” And “I don’t like the Trump administration and I want an open immigration system, so what Trump…

> What you see as “lengthening the process”, others see as actually aligning the process with the laws.

It is lengthening the process no matter how I or anyone "sees" it. It's comparative, I didn't give a value judgement.

It is all politics. Part of the current administration's campaign promises was to let in less immigrants. They now take political moves to do so, including lengthening the asylum process.

There are other reasons besides not liking cheap tech labor to not like H1-B visas. Because they are tied to employers, workers that hold them are easier to abuse, as they have few other options. Other people don't like that it is based on a lottery system, and so companies that request the most H1B visas will get the most H1B visas.

It is not dissonant to believe that H1B should be reduced or removed in its entirety but other visas and legal immigration avenues should be also be opened up.

Re: GitHub tries to quell employee anger over its ICE contract

#594

Post by Trias11 »

harryh wrote: post #519
Trias11 wrote: post #511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally second that. The moment salaried employee start sabotaging his job and putting his views against his job description - it's clearly time for him to reconsider employment at a place that better matches his priorities. Win-win for all, no struggle needed.

GH employees don't just get a salary but also equity. So in addition to being employees they are, in fact, owners of the company. It seems perfectly fair for a company owner (even a small one) to voice an opinion about how the company operates.

I can't really buy a few shares of Apple and get on a high horse trying to steer AAPL revenue strategy to my liking and beliefs.

Shareholder I am - but lets get realistic.

Re: GitHub tries to quell employee anger over its ICE contract

#595

Post by Rapzid »

Thorentis wrote: post #554
sascha_sl wrote: post #549

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To draw a parallel between an organization that runs concentration camps (in a similar state to early nazi camps before they were extermination camps, nuance please) and one that refuses to provide services based on an anarchic justification for bigotry is either truly vile or exceedingly cynic.

[flagged]

I understand what you are saying but I do not believe all morals and values are created equal.

For one, many disparate cultures have separately developed values that are very similar. In a lot of these cultures values intersect more than diverge.

Second, I do not believe discriminating on an entity based on the perceived harm it is causing others is the equivalent to discriminating on an individual or group based on intrinsic characteristics the individuals were born with.

Further, I believe it's potentially desirable to attempt to derive a set of values and morals based on reasoning; attempting to maximize for the constructive and empowering and minimize the destructive and oppressive.

Re: GitHub tries to quell employee anger over its ICE contract

#597

Post by dragonwriter »

icelancer wrote: post #587
aeturnum wrote: post #580

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not think the dichotomy you outlined accurately describes how things work I mean, this is why we have developed the idea of a "protected class." Because you're correct that, at the end of the day, judgement is judgement and sentiment is sentiment and everyone is the hero of their own story. But to place the limits of proper action at sentiment is solipsism. So there is a set of protected classes which we, as a s…

>> race Unless you're Asian/Asian-American, of course. Then it is fine to negatively discriminate against you. https://www.stanforddaily.com/2019/10/03/judge-rules-in-favo...

That's not at all what that decision says. Finding that it did not happen is not the same as finding that it is legal for it to happen.

Re: GitHub tries to quell employee anger over its ICE contract

#598

Post by aeturnum »

Thorrez wrote: post #589
aeturnum wrote: post #574

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> just because we happen to work in a field that lets us exert our influence over society doesn't make our moral sensibilities any better than the rest of society. I agree this is problematic. However, programmers are uniquely well situated to create a system for asking "the rest of society" questions about what kinds of systems they would like a programmer to support. > make the deliberate decision that refraining f…

>What you're describing is cooperating with the status quo, which is definitely an exercise of power. Working for ICE as an engineer would be you exercising your power for ICE. But working for GitHub as an engineer, where GitHub is customer-agnostic, doesn't seem like an exercise of power to me. Anyone can use the product you build, it's not specifically for ICE. Similarly if you design a car and some cars of that de…

I agree with all that I think working on a thing is continuing to bring it into being. Declining to have an opinion is the same as agreeing with the current planned direction.

In that sense, continuing to work for github forwards the net moral "output" of its work. Each wrong or right is weighted differently and though I think we can all agree that there is a direction amplitude is harder.

I just want to add that, in the same sense that quitting github quietly is a tiny blow against ICE, continuing to work for github silently is also clearly supportive of ice. Actions are rarely totally morally neutral, which is ok as long as we don't pretend they are.

Re: GitHub tries to quell employee anger over its ICE contract

#599

Post by aeturnum »

icelancer wrote: post #587
aeturnum wrote: post #580

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not think the dichotomy you outlined accurately describes how things work I mean, this is why we have developed the idea of a "protected class." Because you're correct that, at the end of the day, judgement is judgement and sentiment is sentiment and everyone is the hero of their own story. But to place the limits of proper action at sentiment is solipsism. So there is a set of protected classes which we, as a s…

>> race Unless you're Asian/Asian-American, of course. Then it is fine to negatively discriminate against you. https://www.stanforddaily.com/2019/10/03/judge-rules-in-favo...

I haven't read enough on the Harvard admission scandal to have an opinion.

That said, there are lots of services that consider protected class in ways that aren't currently considered discriminatory. Ladies nights, for instance, are not illegal. Giving discounts to senior citizens is not considered discriminating against others.

All that said - those corner cases are always being considered and questioned. There are instances where I think the official decision is right and ones where I think it's wrong, but I'm no more perfect than anyone else.

Re: GitHub tries to quell employee anger over its ICE contract

#600

Post by d-smoke »

baggy_trough wrote: post #582
d-smoke wrote: post #560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I keep getting flagged/downvoted into oblivion, but I am also a GitHub employee and this person (smudgymcscmudge) is very identifiable based on their public HN posts. The history of all signers of the protest letter is visible (it’s in an internal repo) and he never signed it. Why is HN okay with letting a completely false comment stand?

You expect HN to investigate the truth of individual comments?

I expect them not to delete rebuttals to outright lies
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