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GitHub tries to quell employee anger over its ICE contract

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Re: GitHub tries to quell employee anger over its ICE contract

#271

Post by guitarbill »

malvosenior wrote: post #267
pjc50 wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So? Smart people can figure out that they can be made "illegal" by the stroke of a pen, even if they've complied with every rule they've encountered so far.

It's not actually that easy to revoke someone's citizenship. I know many people who came to the US legally that are vehemently opposed to illegal immigration precisely because they followed the rules and don't see why others shouldn't have to.

visas on the other hand are incredibly easy to revoke, or simply not renew. and you're employer has to support a greencard petition if you're e.g. on an h-1b. i know of at least one person's GC application that got torpedoed after his relationship with his manager soured. especially if they have families, employees on a visa simply aren't going to speak out.

Re: GitHub tries to quell employee anger over its ICE contract

#272

Post by crispinb »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #154
commandlinefan wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also have to wonder what percentage of GitHub’s employees _are_ non-US citizens. Every programming job I’ve ever had in the U.S. was for a company that was staffed by at least 90% foreigners; if they see U.S. immigration as an adversary, they may be opposing any contract on personal grounds.

> Every programming job I’ve ever had in the U.S. was for a company that was staffed by at least 90% foreigners. Where the hell are you working? I'm going to call bullshit, because it's really not that easy to get a work visa in the US. You're saying 90% of your colleagues weren't US citizens?

> I'm going to call bullshit,

Will people please consider a moment's thought before using this adolescent phrase? People throwing it around are probably not using it with its most precise and defensible meaning (a la Harry Frankfurt). So the most charitable alternative gloss is that it's used carelessly to mean someone is just wrong. It's a very poor (because ambiguous) word choice for that. I suspect it's usually deployed to suggest someone is lying, for which you need specific evidence beyond believing a statement to be incorrect. That evidence is very rarely available in an HN comment.

It's hard to be thoughtful about using language, and I'm no exemplar. But a good start is just avoiding reflexively spitting out some rarely useful prefabricated phrases. This is one.

Re: GitHub tries to quell employee anger over its ICE contract

#273

Post by malvosenior »

house9-2 wrote: post #268
plurple wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Luckily, whether you consider something racist or not has no actual impact on the usage of the term. And of course, you’re free to call a speeder an “illegal” if you want, just like apparently you’re free to call other HN users racist for using common terminology in a way you don’t like.

> whether you consider something racist or not has no actual impact on the usage of the term Thats true > for using common terminology in a way you don’t like. When did it become common terminology? I am 47 years old and don't remember that term ever being used until the last presidential election as a means to vilify people of color. Maybe I just wasn't paying attention the other 44 years?

I'm about your age and that term has been used as long as I've been alive.

Re: GitHub tries to quell employee anger over its ICE contract

#274

Post by strken »

pjc50 wrote: post #193
umeshunni wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if a significant portion of GitHub's employees are non-US citizens, it's highly unlikely they're illegals.

So? Smart people can figure out that they can be made "illegal" by the stroke of a pen, even if they've complied with every rule they've encountered so far.

Not really. If government fiat takes away my US visa, and for some reason does so instantaneously with no grace period, then I'd still only be an illegal alien for the few days it takes to get my affairs in order and fly home. The kind of tech worker who's employed full time at github isn't in a remotely comparable situation to someone who's in the country illegally.

Re: GitHub tries to quell employee anger over its ICE contract

#275

Post by jrochkind1 »

tenpies wrote: post #140
annoyingnoob wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is surely in the mix. To me, its about human decency. I support immigration, but even if you do not support immigration you should support human decency. Making people sleep in cages on concrete, limiting supplies, limiting legal assistance, separating families - those are horrible ways to treat other humans, other humans simply seeking a better life. We are largely a nation of immigrants. We've lost sight of ou…

I think the problem is an attribution of intent. You see "white nationalism" but: > Making people sleep in cages There was a spike in the number of illegal immigrants in the last few years, facilities were swamped. This was an unfortunate but temporary measure. It would be more irresponsible to just release people into the country without establishing their identity, criminal history, or a suitable guardian (for chil…

>> Making people sleep in cages

> There was a spike in the number of illegal immigrants in the last few years, facilities were swamped. This was an unfortunate but temporary measure.

It is still going on. It is not okay.

> It would be more irresponsible to just release people into the country without establishing their identity, criminal history, or a suitable guardian (for children).

They are not keeping people until they "established their identity". There is not a process where they keep people asking for asylum locked up only until they establish their identity and no longer, that's just not how it works.

These are weird excuses for taking people fleeing danger imprisoning them in truly abominable conditions, for the sin of asking for asylum.

"These things" are happening because the government intentionally decided to treat people asking for asylum _as bad as they could_, in order to discourage people from doing it, and look good to those who just want to treat them bad. This is all well-documented. It was not some kind of forced hand, the level of asylum seekers and other migrants was not substantially different from the past couple decades. Whether it was because of "white nationalism" I suppose depends on what was in the hearts and minds of the decision-makers, but it's pretty darn clear they consciously decided to treat migrants like animals (worse than you are allowed to treat pets really) and it is disgusting, and it is TERRIFYING to me that so many Americans like you think it's okay, because if it's okay to treat anyone like that, why couldn't any of us be next?

We are setting a terrible precedent on the international stage for how people fleeing danger are treated. That's a lot of false confidence that nobody we know will ever be in that situation. More and more of us will be though.

Re: GitHub tries to quell employee anger over its ICE contract

#276

Post by nostrademons »

mgraczyk wrote: post #159
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Every programming job I’ve ever had in the U.S. was for a company that was staffed by at least 90% foreigners. Where the hell are you working? I'm going to call bullshit, because it's really not that easy to get a work visa in the US. You're saying 90% of your colleagues weren't US citizens?

At every large company where I have worked (Intel, Qualcomm, Google, Facebook) the majority of my colleagues have been non-citizens. In some cases (Qualcomm SD, Google) 100% of the people on my team were non-citizens.

It's heavily team-dependent. I was on a team at Google where I was the only American citizen, with teammates from Iceland, England, Vietnam, India (4), Taiwan (2), and China (2). I was also on a team where there were basically zero non-citizens, and most of my teammates were from places like Ohio, Indiana, Tennessee, Alabama, Colorado, Connecticut, Massachusetts, etc.

Re: GitHub tries to quell employee anger over its ICE contract

#277

Post by lovehashbrowns »

vinay427 wrote: post #232
sneak wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No person is illegal.

I think it's fairly clear the commenter meant that they're "illegal immigrants," which approriately describes people that immigrated illegally. While the abbreviated colloquial form may not be strictly accurate on its own, it's quite reasonable to assume the full form given the context.

The words you use have an effect on how others feel and how they're perceived. The word "illegals" can have negative connotations, and it's a dehumanizing word.

Re: GitHub tries to quell employee anger over its ICE contract

#278

Post by malvosenior »

guitarbill wrote: post #271
malvosenior wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not actually that easy to revoke someone's citizenship. I know many people who came to the US legally that are vehemently opposed to illegal immigration precisely because they followed the rules and don't see why others shouldn't have to.

visas on the other hand are incredibly easy to revoke, or simply not renew. and you're employer has to support a greencard petition if you're e.g. on an h-1b. i know of at least one person's GC application that got torpedoed after his relationship with his manager soured. especially if they have families, employees on a visa simply aren't going to speak out.

> employees on a visa simply aren't going to speak out.

I know many people with visas that are against illegal immigration. Don't assume that everyone who's not from the US hates ICE and supports unfettered immigration.

Re: GitHub tries to quell employee anger over its ICE contract

#279

Post by hnaccy »

house9-2 wrote: post #268
plurple wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Luckily, whether you consider something racist or not has no actual impact on the usage of the term. And of course, you’re free to call a speeder an “illegal” if you want, just like apparently you’re free to call other HN users racist for using common terminology in a way you don’t like.

> whether you consider something racist or not has no actual impact on the usage of the term Thats true > for using common terminology in a way you don’t like. When did it become common terminology? I am 47 years old and don't remember that term ever being used until the last presidential election as a means to vilify people of color. Maybe I just wasn't paying attention the other 44 years?

NPR 2009: https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112167...

CBS 2010: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8xTJ8WCGNU

Forbes 2015: https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2015/06/05/obamas-im...

The Nation 2007: https://www.thenation.com/article/what-america-owes-its-ille...

NY Times 2015:https://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/23/magazine/the-unwelcome-re...

Brookings Institution 1996: https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/why-separate-legal-illega...

Re: GitHub tries to quell employee anger over its ICE contract

#280

Post by jcims »

house9-2 wrote: post #236
umeshunni wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if a significant portion of GitHub's employees are non-US citizens, it's highly unlikely they're illegals.

> it's highly unlikely they're illegals I consider 'illegals' to be a derogatory term used by racists (whether they think they are racist is another matter) Did you drive a car today? Did you speed? If so that is an illegal activity so maybe you are also an 'illegal'? Maybe I am way off base? I should probably go hug a tree or something.

Why would a racist care enough to specify the legality of their presence in the US? That doesn't even stand up to basic reasoning.

'Illegal', while possibly indelicate, gets to the root of the immigration discussion...people sidestepping the process of lawfully entering the US because it's too difficult for them or too slow for their circumstances or just impossible because they are ineligible.

Saying that everyone that's against illegal/unlawful/undocumented immigration to this country is also against immigration in general and is racist is a grotesque abuse of logic. Take a poll of people that took the long road to get to the US, I'm sure you'll find lots of 'racists' there.

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