Live data from Hacker News

NSO hacked WhatsApp to spy on top government officials at U.S. allies

reuters.com

121–130 of 321 posts

Re: NSO hacked WhatsApp to spy on top government officials at U.S. allies

#121

What are Israel doing to get so good at this and chip design and weapons making and everything else they seem to be really good at? There’s only about 8 million people in the whole country. There are plenty of cities with more people than that. How come they punch so far above their weight?

My experience with Israeli companies suggests that a culture which values intellectual achievement and competition is more widespread there.

Similar cultural enclaves exist elsewhere in the world and are presumably similarly effective, but they just aren't as large a portion of the population.

Even small cultural differences can have outsized effects because of pollination-- e.g. it's easier to learn from an expert in a domain if there are more experts around you.

I think your question isn't really that much different to asking why the bay area has "punched above its weight" in terms of producing successful tech companies compared to other regions around the US... or why other regions have had a lot more success in other domains.

Re: NSO hacked WhatsApp to spy on top government officials at U.S. allies

#122
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who's to say Signal will protect you any better against targeted remote-code-execution attacks from well-funded cyber mercenaries like NSO?

How many people actually worry about these spy agencies? If a state actor wants you or your information they'll just pull up in a black van and take you and use a $5 wrench to beat it out of you.

> How many people actually worry about these spy agencies?

I don't really worry about the spy agencies themselves -- I am not of any interest to them.

However, I worry a lot about the likes of NSO and the tools they produce. They are likely to end up being used, in one form or another, by criminals and corporations.

Re: NSO hacked WhatsApp to spy on top government officials at U.S. allies

#123
post #5

Sometimes you just feel like using Signal instead

Signal's software is timebombed to force you into taking automatic updates. These updates could be used to force targeted users into backdoored builds.

Additionally, the signal has had a long history of being feature hostile to strongly secure use, through things like making it very difficult to cryptographically verify the identity of the party you're talking to... or automatically resending the last message you sent when the far end merely claims its key has changed.

I recommend people treat signal as unencrypted communications-- _actually_ unencrypted private communications are too absurdly insecure to use. But in practice signal does not provide the kind of strong security that we would associate with 'encrypted communication', and maybe UI considerations make that an unrealistic goal. Instead signal provides the kind of security we should expect from _ANY_ communication, but which isn't actually provided due to pervasive surveillance.

Re: NSO hacked WhatsApp to spy on top government officials at U.S. allies

#124

Which is hilarious and hypocritical, since the government keeps talking about making end-to-end encryption apps illegal to distribute without backdoors. Now they're using an encryption app with a backdoor,* and they're upset about it? I thought this is what they wanted! *I know, I know, this probably wasn't done with a backdoor -- it's just funnier to lie in this context.

The government isn't a monolithic entity, remember.

Re: NSO hacked WhatsApp to spy on top government officials at U.S. allies

#125
post #19

The article claims that "a flaw in WhatsApp-owned servers" was used to "take over users’ phones". This seems to imply that the hackers were able to escape from the WhatsApp mobile app to perform other actions on the phones. How would this be possible? Or is this just likely careless journalism, and the exploit was that the server breach allowed the attackers to exfiltrate WhatsApp data only?

The article says: "The Facebook-owned software giant alleges that NSO Group built and sold a hacking platform that exploited a flaw in WhatsApp-owned servers to help clients hack into the cellphones of at least 1,400 users."

The actual complaint reads: "Between in and around April 2019 and May 2019, Defendants used WhatsApp servers, located in the United States and elsewhere, to send malware to approximately 1,400 mobile phones and devices (“Target Devices”). Defendants’ malware was designed to infect the Target Devices for the purpose of conducting surveillance of specific WhatsApp users (“Target Users”). Unable to break WhatsApp’s end-to-end encryption, Defendants developed their malware in order to access messages and other communications after they were decrypted on Target Devices. Defendants’ actions were not authorized by Plaintiffs and were in violation of WhatsApp’s Terms of Service. In May 2019, Plaintiffs detected and stopped Defendants’ unauthorized access and abuse of the WhatsApp Service and computers."

https://context-cdn.washingtonpost.com/notes/prod/default/do...

In other words: WhatsApp does not allege a server breach. It alleges that phones were hacked via carefully crafted messages to trigger an exploit[1] on the phones, but to do that, hackers sent the messages via WhatsApp servers. They mention that, because otherwise they would have less of an argument to sue over. As far as I can tell, they're alleging that NSO Group was part of a scheme to interfere with the WhatsApp relay servers and to break the TOS, stated several different ways under different theories and laws.

[1] this one https://nvd.nist.gov/vuln/detail/CVE-2019-3568

Re: NSO hacked WhatsApp to spy on top government officials at U.S. allies

#126

What are Israel doing to get so good at this and chip design and weapons making and everything else they seem to be really good at? There’s only about 8 million people in the whole country. There are plenty of cities with more people than that. How come they punch so far above their weight?

There might be a certain degree of culture that helped.

For instance we tech worker share a very distinct culture from the general culture. Maybe the general culture/ a big subpart of the general culture in Israel is closer to the tech culture, and thus spurring more tech development.

Re: NSO hacked WhatsApp to spy on top government officials at U.S. allies

#127

What are Israel doing to get so good at this and chip design and weapons making and everything else they seem to be really good at? There’s only about 8 million people in the whole country. There are plenty of cities with more people than that. How come they punch so far above their weight?

Jews are extremely overrepresented amongst scientific, business, cultural, and political elites compared to how many of them are in the world. Just look at the list of 500 richest people, or Nobel Prize winners.

I took a class on it back in the day in the uni. There are long and complicated historical factors contributing to this, including centuries of Catholic-church mandated Jewish monopoly on law & banking (i.e. Catholic church didn't allow anybody else to do it because it was considered impure), which resulted in intense focus on education through generations while everybody else was farming and fighting. On top of that, everybody has been trying to murder Jews during the entire history, so there's a lot of natural selection.

Re: NSO hacked WhatsApp to spy on top government officials at U.S. allies

#128

What are Israel doing to get so good at this and chip design and weapons making and everything else they seem to be really good at? There’s only about 8 million people in the whole country. There are plenty of cities with more people than that. How come they punch so far above their weight?

There’s only about 10 million people in Sweden and we’ve produced Saab, Ericsson, Volvo, IKEA, H&M, Spotify, Skype, MySQL to name a few.

I don’t think it’s that uncommon.

Re: NSO hacked WhatsApp to spy on top government officials at U.S. allies

#129

The article doesn't really say what hackers had access to, but it sounds like they had full control over their phones. There is a lot bigger story here and I'd love to read a post-mortem in a few months. Also, WhatsApp is such an obvious target for a state actor. I saw several articles of the last year that mentioned Jared Kushner using Whatsapp so I assume a lot of government folks use it for off the books "encrypte…

It says the hackers had access to WhatsApp servers, so they can tell who is talking to whom, and depending on how WhatsApp does encryption they may have been able to decrypt messages. I say may, because WhatsApp had pitched itself as an encrypted messaging system, though personally I’d bet they could because it’s easy to claim your service is encrypted and yet still design backdoors for yourself.

The article is garbling the WhatsApp allegations: WhatsApp says the hackers abused WhatsApp servers to hack phones, not that the servers had a flaw. To send the malicious payloads to the victims, the hackers sent messages that flowed over WhatsApp's networks, which largely what they're hanging the lawsuit on.

https://context-cdn.washingtonpost.com/notes/prod/default/do...

The actual flaw was this one: https://nvd.nist.gov/vuln/detail/CVE-2019-3568

Re: NSO hacked WhatsApp to spy on top government officials at U.S. allies

#130

What are Israel doing to get so good at this and chip design and weapons making and everything else they seem to be really good at? There’s only about 8 million people in the whole country. There are plenty of cities with more people than that. How come they punch so far above their weight?

I presume that most people will disagree with this but I believe that it is related to Jewish people on average being generally smarter than a non-jewish person. Consider for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_Nobel_laureates

> "Nobel Prizes[note 1] have been awarded to over 900 individuals,[1] of whom at least 20% were Jews, although the Jewish population comprises less than 0.2% of the world's population"

This is also true in my personal experience as well. A lot of my professors had Jewish ancestry and are some of the smartest people that I know. A lot of famous computer scientists have Jewish ancestry too (Sussman, Stallman, etc).

Post reply on HN