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Grandmaster level in StarCraft II using multi-agent reinforcement learning

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191–200 of 321 posts

Re: Grandmaster level in StarCraft II using multi-agent reinforcement learning

#191
Starcraft is a relatively simple game (which is one of the main reasons for its enormous popularity), so seeing an AI do well at it is not particularly impressive.

I'd have been far more impressed had an AI beaten some of the best wargamers at a complex wargame, or had it beaten some of the best text-adventure game players at novel text adventure games neither of them had played before.

The former would be difficult because of the enormous search space that results from the large variety of units, possible actions, and board size in complex wargames, and the latter is from the creativity required to do well at unfamiliar text-adventure games (which are hugely varied and can't be boiled down to any simple set of rules).[1]

Text adventure games would present a further difficulty in that not only do they not have very many players compared to games like chess, go, or Starcraft, but their players aren't normally ranked relative to one another, and there's no enormous record of human-played games to draw on. Further, in text adventures sometimes there are clear winning conditions and sometimes not, and sometimes clear signs of progress and sometimes not. It's also hard to objectively rate a text adventure game's difficulty. Without these features researchers would have a much harder time training an AI to do well against humans.

Another game which I briefly thought about nominating as a challenge for AI's was Factorio, due to its enormous complexity. However, when I thought about it for a little while I realized that this was a game that computers would find it easy to beat humans because they'd do a much better and faster job at number crunching and optimizing. Factorio is really more of a game where a human almost tries to emulate a computer, much like programmers do when they're mentally evaluating or stepping through an algorithm or trying to optimize something.

Of course, seeing an AI beat humans at any of these games would still make the front page of HN, but most gamers (nevermind most non-gamers) who would probably just say "What?" ... and that's probably yet another reason for the reasearchers choosing Starcraft. It's relatively easy, low-hanging publicity fruit, where they could claim success and a relatively large number of people would kind of understand why it was an accomplishment.

[1] - Yes, I'm aware of the recent HN post about fuzzing done on the Z-machines, but by the author's own admission that fuzzer cheated by having access to the game's word dictionary, and it also cheated by having access to the game's internal state -- neither of which a human player would have access to. Also, many Z-machine games are ancient and relatively simple and straightforward compared to more modern games.

Re: Grandmaster level in StarCraft II using multi-agent reinforcement learning

#192

From the paper: >Humans play StarCraftthrough a screen that displays only part of the map along with a high-level view of the entire map, to e.g. avoid information overload. The agent interacts with the game through a similar camera-like interface What exactly does that mean? Does it or does it not play by operating purely on image data human players would see on the screen? How much of the system's interaction with…

It's meant to operate purely on data viewable on the screen to mimic a human player's experience and provide an even playing ground.

Can you cite something that confirms your assertion?

From what I'm reading in the paper, it sounds like there is some custom interface in play:

>AlphaStar can target locations more accurately than humans outside the camera, although less accurately within it because target locations (selected on a 256x256 grid) are treated the same inside and outside the camera.

It's really hard to parse what such statements mean. The fact that someone who is cited as a co-author of the paper approved the interface as "fair" isn't particularly reassuring.

Re: Grandmaster level in StarCraft II using multi-agent reinforcement learning

#193
post #94

What do you guys think about having the ai communicate to a person and having them execute the moves?

Having played starcraft - the idea doesn't work. Starcraft happens to quickly, with too much precision, and too low a tolerance for latency to wait for a human to absorb understand and execute instructions.

Having programmed simple NNs the idea doesn't work. The amount of time you'd have to spend having humans execute instructions during training would be astronomical. They were training 16000 games simultaneously, for 44 days, most likely running at some multiple of how fast the game normally runs. Moreover you lose out on supervised learning, because we don't data sets of "the human told the other human to do this", we only have data sets (almost a million games large) of "the human did this".

Re: Grandmaster level in StarCraft II using multi-agent reinforcement learning

#194
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The speed at which AlphaStar overtook previous AIs seems to me to be nearly unprecedented in AI research. Is it not simply the case that, before AlphaStar, very little money and effort was being put into developing AIs for Starcraft 2?

What makes this amazing isn't specific to StarCraft 2. AI in strategy games has been really lackluster. I can't think of a single example of a strategy game where an AI was competitive against experienced players due to strategy and tactics, rather than inhuman speed, accuracy or cheating. So it's not just about AI in StarCraft 2, but rather AI in essentially any (strategy) game. Now we have an example of an AI that…

If you watch the alphastar games inhuman speed and accuracy are a big part Of why it is so successful

Re: Grandmaster level in StarCraft II using multi-agent reinforcement learning

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it's impossible for humans. Humans are used to clicking multiple times to do an action. Some actions you want to take in the game are very important, failure to do them correctly can mean a lost game, for example moving units in combat properly. This means that it's better to spam click that action a few times to make sure that the button press is registered properly, because it is possible for button press…

Hmm, seems like it might be interesting to add a slight error rate for AI clicking and see how it handles it?

You only need excess dexterity than your opponent, and only for a couple seconds, to decisively win a match in SC2.

Error rates, EPM and APM are all red herrings.

Re: Grandmaster level in StarCraft II using multi-agent reinforcement learning

#196
post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Starcraft is an incredibly complex game. Even basic strategies will win if they’re done faster. APM (actions per minute) is a very significant factor into who is winning. Apparently they limited their AI player to 264 APM but that’s still incredibly high and done with machine level consistency. That’s almost 4.5 actions per second!! I know there are human level players at and probably above that level but that really…

And the bot also can parse the entire screen in .03 seconds and then jump to a new area of the map. No human can monitor the entire map like the bot can.

But when the machines start competing with humans it should be fair?

Re: Grandmaster level in StarCraft II using multi-agent reinforcement learning

#197
I see a lot of comments downplaying this achievement, saying it's not impressive or it won't be impressive until X condition is met.

I welcome skepticism and criticism for this sort of thing, and think most of it that I've seen here is well founded. But I would like to take a second to explain why I think this, and really all the progress in this area, is actually a really impressive achievement to me.

Let me try and frame this from the computers perspective. Let's assume a resolution of 1024x780. I'm not sure what size frames they actually feed their agent but it's not that important to the discussion, the point is it's a big image, and according to the article this agent is learning from pixels. So, you the computer are given let's say 1024*780 = 798720 numbers to look at. You then choose a number between 0 and 798720 (or the crazy 10^26 number the article gives as the possible number of actions at each frame) as your action for that frame, and then you get another 798720 numbers to look at. After the round is over (on average 20 minutes, if you make a decision every frame that's 20x60x60 = 72000 rounds). You get one number telling you how well you did. You repeat the process and get a new number. It's higher this time! But what is the cause? was it that click you made on frame 22456? or maybe that unlikely move you made on frame 4567?

Obviously I'm oversimplifying here, and the numbers are probably wrong. but I still think what I've said gives the right idea for what kind of task we (as a society/community/whatever) have somehow gotten a computer to solve. Computers are DUMB, the fact that it's able to play this game at all, let alone at a high level, is still a minor miracle to me.

Re: Grandmaster level in StarCraft II using multi-agent reinforcement learning

#198

This is a really interesting one to digest. As with previous announcements about AlphaStar, much of the feedback (here and elsewhere) is about the fundamental challenge of assessing human vs. machine in an RTS. These points are very valid - stepping back however, this still feels like a pretty incredible accomplishment. I'm a gold league SC2 player, so maybe in the 30th-50th percentile. Three years ago, when DeepMind…

>much of the feedback (here and elsewhere) is about the fundamental challenge of assessing human vs. machine in an RTS

It's amazing that most people here don't understand that AI performance in any one computer game relative to humans is largely irrelevant. A system that can play many games at a mediocre level, but does it without any hand-holding, clever APIs or architecture adaptation is infinitely more impressive than a system that can beat everyone in a specific game with all those things applied.

Remember, most humans are completely mediocre at Chess, Go or StarCraft.

Re: Grandmaster level in StarCraft II using multi-agent reinforcement learning

#199
post #105

What would be interesting is to limit the AI processing speed to human capacity, which is something like 60 bits per second. In all these AI v. Human games I see, it is really apples to oranges because the human consumes vastly less resources and compute cycles to perform at the same level as the AI. And when I say 'vast' I mean Vast. There is like a quintillion factor difference between the AI and the human. There i…

It would be interesting to see if there are any meta reports on people doing research on the topic of resource constrained AI. Has anyone explored whether or not an AI can improve on its own algorithm while being heavily resource constrained?

Is the ability to use less resources a limit of our current hardware? Do we see the current hardware performance improvement trajectory being able to reduce the amount of resources an AI consumes to perform a task?

Are our algorithms simply not tuned well for using smaller resources? Could we build better algorithms around resource deficient environments?

Re: Grandmaster level in StarCraft II using multi-agent reinforcement learning

#200
post #159

This is a really interesting one to digest. As with previous announcements about AlphaStar, much of the feedback (here and elsewhere) is about the fundamental challenge of assessing human vs. machine in an RTS. These points are very valid - stepping back however, this still feels like a pretty incredible accomplishment. I'm a gold league SC2 player, so maybe in the 30th-50th percentile. Three years ago, when DeepMind…

> This is like if the world's best chess AI had gone from losing high school tournaments to being competitive with Kasparov in less than 3 years. I don't think it's like that at all. On the high level, there is no "chess AI", "go AI", "image classification AI" and "dexterous manipulation AI". These are all sides of the same coin, that gets significantly better every year. Adding support for the new game or new "envir…

First of all, nice comment! That said,

> Anytime a next task is solved, there is a crowd saying it's not a "real AI" and that scientists are solving "toy problems". Both statements are totally true. But the underlying substance is that each of these toy problems is of increasing complexity and brings us closer and closer to solving the "real problems"

I wonder if this is true. This belief may seem like common sense, but it's not obvious to me that domain-specific problems must generalize to General AI ("real problems") or even bring us closer to it. That is, it's not evidently true that many small problems will eventually lead to a general solver of everything (or to human-like intelligence). Or to say it in yet another way, it's not obvious to me that human-like intelligence is the sum of many small-problem-intelligences.

Again, common sense may lead us to believe this, and maybe it's true! But I think this conclusion is far from scientifically evident.

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