Live data from Hacker News

Zuckerberg doubles down on Facebook political ads policy after Twitter ban

thehill.com

241–250 of 371 posts

Re: Zuckerberg doubles down on Facebook political ads policy after Twitter ban

#241
post #77

Are political ads labeled / presented any differently than regular ads on Facebook? The main issue I have with this is how Facebook strategically blends advertisements (which is often political during election cycles) together with organic non-sponsored content. Anecdote: My 84 year old grandmother spends 1-2 hours per day scrolling through Facebook's news feed. When I watch her do it, she pays ZERO attention to why…

Why can't FB charge a minimal subscription fee? For 2-3 bucks a year, wouldn't they keep the vast majority of users and simultaneously remove their dependence on shadowy advertisement dollars?

I did a back of the paper calculation as to how much fb would earn via me as a user. I noticed a user like me spends about 15 mins a day on facebook and see around 6 sponsored posts. Internally FB ads are all CPM based, at about $4-5 per CPM, no matter the optimization advertisers choose. In a year he would have seen about 2000 impressions, and hence minimum price would be around $10 per year. (There are many users who spends a lot more time and hence the revenue multiple will be higher)

But there is more revenue than just that. FB allows advertisers to reach specific audiences, and even create lookalikes, so overall, there will be a %age of the users seeing more ads than me, potentially personalized for them, and average revenue per user would be higher.

Re: Zuckerberg doubles down on Facebook political ads policy after Twitter ban

#242
post #4

>Ads can be an important part of voice - especially for candidates and advocacy groups the media might not otherwise cover so they can get their message into debates It's interesting how hard Zuck is working to try and conflate the idea of 'free speech' with paid advertisements. To put it another way, if advertising on Facebook is part of my free speech, surely Zuck must run my adverts despite the fact I have no mone…

While Facebook is obviously not bound by the first amendment, the fact that something is paid doesn’t undermine its nature as free speech. Thomas Paine’s “Common Sense,” which sparked the American Revolution, was published and sold for profit. https://www.printmag.com/editors-picks/power-of-print-common.... (Though Paine donated his share to the Continental Army.)

Paine got his message out by contracting with for-profit publishers to disseminate his book. Facebook is just the new version of that.

Re: Zuckerberg doubles down on Facebook political ads policy after Twitter ban

#243
post #6

Facebook, the platform, is in trouble. It doesn't matter what the outcome is of the 2020 election season, or what Facebook does during it. They will be blamed for it. Buying Instagram and Whatsapp was farsighted, Facebook the company can cruise for awhile on those properties. The main site is bound to fall out of fashion, and soon. Can't be soon enough for my taste.

Sadly many groups I am a part of have moved to facebook and have no interest in moving off of the platform. To be honest I think it's pretty terrible as a group platform. No proper discussion threads and it's hard to find stuff. But people don't have to pay to host a website/forum and there's virtually no barrier to join since most people have an account on facebook.com. The only reason I still use facebook is for th…

I think this may be why some groups use it. I have involved myself in many online business groups (real estate, mlm, etc) and they have a good reason to use facebook groups. They are very easy to control what voices are heard. For example to submit a post to one group which you have to pay +$2500 to enter every post has to be approved by the administrator before it's visible.

Re: Zuckerberg doubles down on Facebook political ads policy after Twitter ban

#244
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I notice you don't address his actual point though. If, let's say, a group advocating for the abolishment of asset forfeiture wants to communicate their message, and the media is not covering it, it would be natural for them to try paying for ads, and the obvious place to put ads are on social media, since that's where the eyeballs are (cf, the collapse of the news media). If social media bans those ads then while th…

Claiming that we must be reliant on private corporations for free speech is a corruption of the very concept. I don't agree with your argument, but to the extent that there's any truth to it the remedy can only be to fix the underlying problem—not submitting to it. To be clear, my objection isn't to all online advertising but specifically to Zuckerberg defending Facebook's policy with an appeal to free speech. Obviou…

The press is nothing more than a collection of private organizations and until the advent of the internet and sites to include facebook many of their shenanigans went unchecked.

the is the problem with free speech, you accept you will have both and good and hopefully with a preponderance of free speech the good will out weigh the bad.

once you start trying to limit who and where you give bad speech the edge because those who set the rules also determine which is which

the real threat to free speech and democracy is from those sitting in office successfully scaring the people into letting them set limits on who can say anything and what they can say when in reality the only group that should face any such limits are those in office and those beholden to them and the party they represent.

Re: Zuckerberg doubles down on Facebook political ads policy after Twitter ban

#245
post #113
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one is saying paid speech is not free speech. Obviously it is. The flawed argument Zuck made is that in order to have free speech we must have paid speech. That's a self-serving fallacy. There's a difference between paying for printing costs and paying a middle man to distribute your message to an arbitrary number of people, especially when that middle man has zero accountability and zero marginal cost.

It looks like you've misrepresented not one, but two arguments. > No one is saying paid speech is not free speech. The parent to whom I was responding said "It's interesting how hard Zuck is working to try and conflate the idea of 'free speech' with paid advertisement", implying that they believe that paid speech is not free speech. > The flawed argument Zuck made is that in order to have free speech we must have pai…

You have it backwards. Conflating free speech with paid ads isn't about whether the paid ads are free speech, it's whether paid ads are necessary for free speech. That's an important distinction, and is clearly the argument the OP is making.

Zuck never said it explicitly, but it's strongly implied from his conflation of free speech and paid ads that he thinks paid ads are necessary for the freedom of speech.

That's where the fallacy lies. Paid ads, while being free speech, skew the messages' reach. It's cute that he tries to use a grassroots message as the upside, but it overlooks two massive problems that are pervasive on his platform.

1. The deeper your pockets, the louder your megaphone. It doesn't really matter that the little guys can also buy political ads if the big players can drown them out. In fact, I would say it has the opposite effect than the one he suggests. A grassroots effort with a compelling message can make waves without political advertising, e.g. the Arab Spring. But in an environment where most political messaging is ad-based, a small effort will never have enough resources to compete with a larger foe.

2. There is no accountability in the political ads. In one example, there are at least 10 "different" pages all disseminating the same false messages, coordinated at the same time. Yet Facebook says these are unrelated pages. Being as there is no reporting of who is funding the ads, it's impossible to tell if it is a candidate, a PAC, or a foreign power backing them. And as we've seen, that lack of accountability can be very problematic.

We have a lot of rules about political speech because we have seen over time how it can be abused. Social media did not exist at the time, but now it has more power than any other form of media. Twitter sidestepped the whole issue, and kudos to them for it. Candidates and PACs can still get their messages out, but now it has to be on merit rather than money. Facebook is going the opposite direction, and that's a problem.

Re: Zuckerberg doubles down on Facebook political ads policy after Twitter ban

#246
post #77

Are political ads labeled / presented any differently than regular ads on Facebook? The main issue I have with this is how Facebook strategically blends advertisements (which is often political during election cycles) together with organic non-sponsored content. Anecdote: My 84 year old grandmother spends 1-2 hours per day scrolling through Facebook's news feed. When I watch her do it, she pays ZERO attention to why…

>At least when watching television, it's absolutely clear when you're watching paid-for commercials

That is not true, product placement can be very subtle and even when it's not, it's not like the actors look at the camera and say "This show brought to you by X" even when it really is.

Re: Zuckerberg doubles down on Facebook political ads policy after Twitter ban

#247
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I notice you don't address his actual point though. If, let's say, a group advocating for the abolishment of asset forfeiture wants to communicate their message, and the media is not covering it, it would be natural for them to try paying for ads, and the obvious place to put ads are on social media, since that's where the eyeballs are (cf, the collapse of the news media). If social media bans those ads then while th…

So if I run a advocacy group in favor of asset forfeiture but don’t have money to pay Zuck, then what? Screw my advocacy group? You want folks with money to have “more free speech” and don’t see anything wrong with that?

>You want folks with money to have “more free speech” and don’t see anything wrong with that?

Yes, I don't see anything wrong with that.

If I choose to print 1,000 flyers to hand out, I am using money to amplify my voice. Do you see anything wrong with this?

Facebook Ads are no different.

Re: Zuckerberg doubles down on Facebook political ads policy after Twitter ban

#248
post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it NOT his role to protect democracy? Democracy thrives on freedom of information, and with an informed populace. If the democracy's populace is gaining massive quantities of information from Twitter, isn't Jack Dorsey then directly involved in being an arbiter of democracy? For better or worse, isn't it factually true that these tech-info companies are directly woven into the fabric of our democracy?

I was just talking about their statements, but regarding the argument, isn't this an arrogant position to take? You are basically saying that the majority of the population is not smart enough to detect fake news by themselves, and that a smaller group of smart individuals (you included) are better poised to protect "the people" and control what they should and should not be exposed to. Sounds a little dystopian and…

There's a difference between arrogance and actually having a lot of power. Zuckerberg is dodging accountability and pretending FB isn't responsible for the ads it's running. And it doesn't have to be a majority - the last election was decided by a margin of 0.09% of all votes cast, and ad platforms let advertisers target people pretty finely.

Re: Zuckerberg doubles down on Facebook political ads policy after Twitter ban

#249
post #4

>Ads can be an important part of voice - especially for candidates and advocacy groups the media might not otherwise cover so they can get their message into debates It's interesting how hard Zuck is working to try and conflate the idea of 'free speech' with paid advertisements. To put it another way, if advertising on Facebook is part of my free speech, surely Zuck must run my adverts despite the fact I have no mone…

What he is saying is that Money needs to find a way to speak.

Nothing new, just some sugar coating of 'We Need That Ads Money, are you kidding me?'

Re: Zuckerberg doubles down on Facebook political ads policy after Twitter ban

#250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why can't FB charge a minimal subscription fee? For 2-3 bucks a year, wouldn't they keep the vast majority of users and simultaneously remove their dependence on shadowy advertisement dollars?

I did a back of the paper calculation as to how much fb would earn via me as a user. I noticed a user like me spends about 15 mins a day on facebook and see around 6 sponsored posts. Internally FB ads are all CPM based, at about $4-5 per CPM, no matter the optimization advertisers choose. In a year he would have seen about 2000 impressions, and hence minimum price would be around $10 per year. (There are many users w…

I think your numbers are pretty far off if you look at Facebook financial statements, and a more accurate cost would be around $200/yr for a daily user [1]. US & Canada had 189 million daily users and a quarterly Ad revenue of 8.487 Billion dollars. That is $45 per user per quarter.

[1] https://s21.q4cdn.com/399680738/files/doc_financials/2019/q3...

Post reply on HN