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Piper Announces First GA Aircraft with Autoland Capability

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Re: Piper Announces First GA Aircraft with Autoland Capability

#151

Post by briandear »

pc86 wrote: post #116
throw0101a wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thunderstorm: it can use weather broadcast over ADS-In UAT. Mentioned in the AVweb report. Closure: certainly a problem. Mountain: can use worldwide topographic information in its database to route around. See AVweb Crosswind: mentions getting local weather. Engine: Autland cannot help. But on the Cirrus you'd pull the CAPS cord and float down.

CAPS is not supposed to be used because you have an engine out under most circumstances - you are perfectly capable of dead-sticking a Cirrus onto a runway just like any other small GA plane. And it's not a gentle float, it's ~1700fpm or about 20mph, straight down. The airframe and seats absorb a chunk of it but compared to a 500-700fpm descent on an engine-out landing, pulling CAPS because your engine dies with any…

Wrong. Check the Cirrus POH and exactly the opposite you said is true. In an engine out over the minimum altitude and under the pull speed, use the chute.

Chute pulls are almost 100% survivable. Landing in a field is a much lower percentage. Just hitting nearly invisible power lines can slice a plane in half. You also have a fire danger when landing off airport. And many dead engine landings result in landing short of the field.

You aren’t going to get ridicule from the Cirrus community for pulling the chute and even if you did, it’s less ridicule than crash landing into a field that looked suitable from 2000 feet up.

Re: Piper Announces First GA Aircraft with Autoland Capability

#152

Post by briandear »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #147
guidoism wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The insurance companies apparently want pilots to pull the CAPS rather than try to dead stick it. That’s what I was told when I got checked out in the SR22 by the flight school. They drilled it into me. What happens when blah blah blah? Pull the CAPS. That was the answer to everything.

>The insurance companies apparently want pilots to pull the CAPS rather than try to dead stick it. Well of course they do. CAPS does a pretty good job putting an upper bound on the worst case result. They don't care if you screw your plane up because that's a known cost and you'll pay it back through premiums if you keep flying. Dead sticking it has a very good chance of being no more expensive than a normal landing…

One of my friends is a Cirrus platinum instructor, including being type rated for the Vision Jet and even he had a CAPS pull as his first choice versus landing off airport. They call it dead sticking for a reason.

Re: Piper Announces First GA Aircraft with Autoland Capability

#153

Post by Zak »

appstorelottery wrote: post #145
lisper wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From https://www.piper.com/model/m600sls/ "The routing algorithm determines a path to the Final Approach Fix (FAF) of the chosen published approach that avoids terrain, obstacles, and significant weather." That handles all of your contingencies except an engine failure. If you have an engine failure and a pilot who can't dead-stick a landing you're probably screwed. But you're still no worse off in that case than you…

I think this a case for better GA trining. Expecting engine failure on takeoff, building the counterintuitive pitch-down reflex to avoid stall, and so on. Knowing your minimum maneuverable speed (and marking it on your air speed indicator). Expecting something to go wrong is the key mindset. A GA death happens roughly once a week for the reasons you outline. Emergency situations are not time to learn new skills, you…

This system appears to be designed primarily for situations involving pilot incapacitation, not compensating for deficits in pilot skill.

Re: Piper Announces First GA Aircraft with Autoland Capability

#154

Post by mixedCase »

AWildC182 wrote: post #142
kgilpin wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing to keep in mind is that any type of auto-fly is dependent on a LOT of automation systems on the plane itself being functional. For example, instruments, sensors, autopilot, auto throttle. To be considered safe, an auto-fly needs to be able to gracefully degrade as the subsystems in which it depends start to fail. Human pilots are trained to handle this by compensating for system failures in a variety of way…

Gyro powered steam gauges are all but gone from aviation. The GA fleet is even shedding them at a promising rate. MEMS based independent systems with backup power are solid state and far more reliable than a janky vacuum pump driven by the engine running a couple clockwork instruments.

Sorry to be a pedant but since it took me a second to get it at first: "all but gone" implies that they're definitely still here, I think something like "almost gone" or "almost out of use" would be the right phrasing.

Re: Piper Announces First GA Aircraft with Autoland Capability

#155

Post by rhombocombus »

Daviey wrote: post #62
nabla9 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's to be used only in the event that the pilot is incapacitated. Because it's an emergency feature engaged by a passenger or automatically, it probably can't manage all complex situations. It may be just good weather emergency landing. Check fuel and wind, steer to nearest emergency airport and land. Best effort is better than no effort and dying. > There is a mountain between the normal 3-degree glide-slope and th…

> Cruise missiles have had similar technology for a long time. I try to make my landings a little less eventful.

I prefer to be subsonic before I let the mains touch down (atleast...)

Re: Piper Announces First GA Aircraft with Autoland Capability

#156

Post by HeyLaughingBoy »

appstorelottery wrote: post #145
lisper wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From https://www.piper.com/model/m600sls/ "The routing algorithm determines a path to the Final Approach Fix (FAF) of the chosen published approach that avoids terrain, obstacles, and significant weather." That handles all of your contingencies except an engine failure. If you have an engine failure and a pilot who can't dead-stick a landing you're probably screwed. But you're still no worse off in that case than you…

I think this a case for better GA trining. Expecting engine failure on takeoff, building the counterintuitive pitch-down reflex to avoid stall, and so on. Knowing your minimum maneuverable speed (and marking it on your air speed indicator). Expecting something to go wrong is the key mindset. A GA death happens roughly once a week for the reasons you outline. Emergency situations are not time to learn new skills, you…

All of that was covered, to the point of automatic reflex, during my Private Pilot training. I'm pretty sure it was standard, and not just my Instructor.

Re: Piper Announces First GA Aircraft with Autoland Capability

#157

Post by rhombocombus »

lisper wrote: post #75
eternalny1 wrote: post #24

This is a seriously impressive bit of software engineering. It seems as simple as "push a button" to the layman but what happens when: There is a thunderstorm between the airport and the runway The nearest runway is closed due to a blizzard There is a mountain between the normal 3-degree glide-slope and the runway, an "offset approach" There is a 40-knot crosswind You have an engine out That's just a few, I'm a comme…

From https://www.piper.com/model/m600sls/ "The routing algorithm determines a path to the Final Approach Fix (FAF) of the chosen published approach that avoids terrain, obstacles, and significant weather." That handles all of your contingencies except an engine failure. If you have an engine failure and a pilot who can't dead-stick a landing you're probably screwed. But you're still no worse off in that case than you…

That is largely mitigated by the MUCH more reliable turboprop in the M600. They have problems much less frequently than piston engines. Not to say they don't happen, or that it isn't important that pilots train for engine out scenarios, it's crucial for pilot safety and an integral part of Aeronautical Decision Making, but this technology on a turboprop platform has the potential to dramatically reduce the likelihood of a fatal accident.

Re: Piper Announces First GA Aircraft with Autoland Capability

#158

Post by briandear »

throw0101a wrote: post #35
eternalny1 wrote: post #24

This is a seriously impressive bit of software engineering. It seems as simple as "push a button" to the layman but what happens when: There is a thunderstorm between the airport and the runway The nearest runway is closed due to a blizzard There is a mountain between the normal 3-degree glide-slope and the runway, an "offset approach" There is a 40-knot crosswind You have an engine out That's just a few, I'm a comme…

Thunderstorm: it can use weather broadcast over ADS-In UAT. Mentioned in the AVweb report. Closure: certainly a problem. Mountain: can use worldwide topographic information in its database to route around. See AVweb Crosswind: mentions getting local weather. Engine: Autland cannot help. But on the Cirrus you'd pull the CAPS cord and float down.

Except ADS-B NEXRAD weather is generally 15-20 minutes behind the actual conditions. Using on board weather radar is much better .. many G3000 airplanes are using onboard weather radar rather than the outdated info from ADS-B.

Re: Piper Announces First GA Aircraft with Autoland Capability

#159

Post by dsfyu404ed »

briandear wrote: post #152
dsfyu404ed wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The insurance companies apparently want pilots to pull the CAPS rather than try to dead stick it. Well of course they do. CAPS does a pretty good job putting an upper bound on the worst case result. They don't care if you screw your plane up because that's a known cost and you'll pay it back through premiums if you keep flying. Dead sticking it has a very good chance of being no more expensive than a normal landing…

One of my friends is a Cirrus platinum instructor, including being type rated for the Vision Jet and even he had a CAPS pull as his first choice versus landing off airport. They call it dead sticking for a reason.

Was it his plane or a company plane? There's a big difference between taking on a little extra risk for your money vs someone else's money.

Re: Piper Announces First GA Aircraft with Autoland Capability

#160

Post by zarkov99 »

nabla9 wrote: post #31
eternalny1 wrote: post #24

This is a seriously impressive bit of software engineering. It seems as simple as "push a button" to the layman but what happens when: There is a thunderstorm between the airport and the runway The nearest runway is closed due to a blizzard There is a mountain between the normal 3-degree glide-slope and the runway, an "offset approach" There is a 40-knot crosswind You have an engine out That's just a few, I'm a comme…

It's to be used only in the event that the pilot is incapacitated. Because it's an emergency feature engaged by a passenger or automatically, it probably can't manage all complex situations. It may be just good weather emergency landing. Check fuel and wind, steer to nearest emergency airport and land. Best effort is better than no effort and dying. > There is a mountain between the normal 3-degree glide-slope and th…

Would it be a lot simpler to have a remote pilot access the controls? Why go through all this ?
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