Lots of Job Hunting, but No Job, Despite Low Unemployment • Hacker News Board

Re: Lots of Job Hunting, but No Job, Despite Low Unemployment

#121

Post by melvinroest » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 5:07 PM UTC

non-entity wrote: post #99

zentiggr wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe some of these companies see DoodleDocs and wonder if you'd be a bad fit for a CRUD type position? Like, you've already gone beyond a lot of those basic needs, so why would you "step down" to a CRUD job?

Dont "CRUD" jobs make up a large majority of the jobs for software developers?

Yea, in fact, there are some HN comments (can't find sources) that feel discouraged by this because they want to work on more technically interesting things. Like a C++ compiler or a distributed system. But instead they write CRUD apps and seem to feel sad about it.

I'm a bit different in that sense as challenging programming hurts my brain a lot (and yet I still continue with it, no pain no gain they say). Which is why I think I might like CRUD because that doesn't hurt my brain a lot, yet you still get to create beautiful things.

Re: Lots of Job Hunting, but No Job, Despite Low Unemployment

#122

Post by melvinroest » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 5:08 PM UTC

Droobfest wrote: post #113

melvinroest wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, submit where? I don't get what you mean by submitting, you mean on HN? Doodledocs is the only one. Apps I've made over my lifetime are a lot less than I'd wanted to but here they are: 1. an ios app called Wordpin (I made it for a person who really wanted it) 2. an ios app called SIVT (psychology research thingy, it was a lot of fun) 3. A computer graphics engine (2012, still one of my best memories, Doodledocs…

I think he meant job applications ;)

Haha, whoops :D

30 EU

20 US

I have no illusions about the US, but I try anyway.

Re: Lots of Job Hunting, but No Job, Despite Low Unemployment

#123

Post by melvinroest » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 5:10 PM UTC

zihotki wrote: post #104

melvinroest wrote: post #24

I'm honestly experiencing this as a CS grad in the Dutch job market. I find it weird and frustrating. I've noticed why: 1. Companies don't dare to value creativity [1]. University is so liberal and the job market is so the opposite. 2. Most companies can't value a CS degree. The exception is when enough people in the company did a CS degree and that's a lot more rare than I thought. 3. University didn't teach me to f…

As one of many others working in CS in NL and also partially involved in candidate evaluation process, I can say that on Dutch IT job market as anywhere else the value of a diploma is low but value of skills is high. Proper CV with clear focus and skillset is a must. As an example, we're hired a graduate just a few days ago because he shown us good understanding of Angular and did an assessment well. Last year anothe…

Those are really good tips, thanks for sharing!

I do find it interesting to note that I'm not getting an algorithm/data structures vibe in The Netherlands as much, and your story just seems to support that idea. However, that US-centric narrative is a bit of a mainstream narrative on HN.

Re: Lots of Job Hunting, but No Job, Despite Low Unemployment

#124

Post by eqdw » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 5:11 PM UTC

melvinroest wrote: post #24

I'm honestly experiencing this as a CS grad in the Dutch job market. I find it weird and frustrating. I've noticed why: 1. Companies don't dare to value creativity [1]. University is so liberal and the job market is so the opposite. 2. Most companies can't value a CS degree. The exception is when enough people in the company did a CS degree and that's a lot more rare than I thought. 3. University didn't teach me to f…

I had the same problem in Canada. Then I moved to the US. Now I have recruiters begging me to come work at their company at least once a week.

You should move to the US, it'll be much easier to find work

Re: Lots of Job Hunting, but No Job, Despite Low Unemployment

#125

Post by tenpoundhammer » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 5:14 PM UTC

melvinroest wrote: post #24

I'm honestly experiencing this as a CS grad in the Dutch job market. I find it weird and frustrating. I've noticed why: 1. Companies don't dare to value creativity [1]. University is so liberal and the job market is so the opposite. 2. Most companies can't value a CS degree. The exception is when enough people in the company did a CS degree and that's a lot more rare than I thought. 3. University didn't teach me to f…

TLDR; The cost of a bad hire is extremely high and not worth the risk.

I'm a team lead and do a fair number of interviews. It's amazing how many people can talk about their experience and make a ton of really impressive statements that makes it appear as though they are knowledgeable and then that person can't perform a simple coding exercise. On the other hand, it's equally amazing how a person can do an excellent job coding but not be able to get through basic day to day human interactions with their peers.

If a candidate falls into either of these camps, they are an easy no hire. If a hiring manager ends up hiring a candidate that is difficult to work with either because they can't code or because they have poor social skills, it can be very costly. It often takes several months to find out that you made a bad hire. By the time you figure it out it's often taken a large toll on the team and can lead to productive team members leaving.

When you finally find out that you've got a problem most companies have a huge process to go through for firing that person and that process is super intensive and takes months. Not to mention how emotionally difficult it is to tell someone they are so bad they have to be fired.

All that to say, the cost benefit analysis is clear only hire people that will over time be a net gain. Don’t take any risks ever.

If I were a recently graduated software engineer, I would be hedging against these risks in every way. I would produce a lot of code in the area I’m seeking to be hired. I would work a lot on being friendly and carefully choosing my words, so I don’t sound like a know it all or a person who enjoys conflict. I would prepare statements about my goals of how I fully intend to spend at least 3 years at this job if conditions allow, and I would practice being humble.

No one actually expects you to spend the next 3 years at a job if it’s not going well, you just need a way to express that if it’s a good fit you intend to stay put and do a great work. 3 years is just an arbitrary number.

Re: Lots of Job Hunting, but No Job, Despite Low Unemployment

#126

Post by southphillyman » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 5:15 PM UTC

sharkweek wrote: post #4

In my early (okay... mid) thirties now. I have been laid off once and left on my own will from three jobs through the last 12 years of my career. Being laid off puts kind of a stink on you, even if slight, that requires a bit of interview time be spent clarifying WHY you got laid off instead of entirely being able to focus on experience, accomplishments etc. When I was moving from one place to another, there seemed t…

Do you even have to disclose that you were laid off? Why not just say you took time off to travel or something? Or just say that assignment/job ended and you are looking for new opportunities without going into further detail? I know several people who quit jobs to travel for months at a time, in a way it's a signal that you may be a good performer if you have that kind of luxury.

Re: Lots of Job Hunting, but No Job, Despite Low Unemployment

#127

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 5:16 PM UTC

melvinroest wrote: post #24

I'm honestly experiencing this as a CS grad in the Dutch job market. I find it weird and frustrating. I've noticed why: 1. Companies don't dare to value creativity [1]. University is so liberal and the job market is so the opposite. 2. Most companies can't value a CS degree. The exception is when enough people in the company did a CS degree and that's a lot more rare than I thought. 3. University didn't teach me to f…

[deleted]

Re: Lots of Job Hunting, but No Job, Despite Low Unemployment

#128

Post by notus » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 5:17 PM UTC

melvinroest wrote: post #97

csomar wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think 1. companies are burned out with CS grads who simply can't code 2. companies are burned out from new employees just learning the job and then jump somewhere else and 3. companies are looking to on-board you as fast as possible. A few problems you should be working on: > nobody cares that I fast-tracked > in terms of crystalized intelligence > But my portfolio is rather terrible > compared to what I'm capable…

It might be true. I diagnosed it today. I had it in high school with mathematics as well. I wouldn't learn it at all and then scrape by with a 55%. And I have the same with programming. I think I only respect things that truly seem not learnable or understandable. Anything that I can learn, I lose some respect for, because I can just use my brain and it'll be mine. But today I told myself that's a dangerous attitude…

If you don't have respect for CRUD apps, why are you trying to get a job doing CRUD apps?

Re: Lots of Job Hunting, but No Job, Despite Low Unemployment

#129

Post by geodel » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 5:17 PM UTC

eqdw wrote: post #124

melvinroest wrote: post #24

I'm honestly experiencing this as a CS grad in the Dutch job market. I find it weird and frustrating. I've noticed why: 1. Companies don't dare to value creativity [1]. University is so liberal and the job market is so the opposite. 2. Most companies can't value a CS degree. The exception is when enough people in the company did a CS degree and that's a lot more rare than I thought. 3. University didn't teach me to f…

I had the same problem in Canada. Then I moved to the US. Now I have recruiters begging me to come work at their company at least once a week. You should move to the US, it'll be much easier to find work

How do you manage living in US. HN tells me that living here is terrible in every possible way compare to Canada and even more terrible compare to Europe?

Re: Lots of Job Hunting, but No Job, Despite Low Unemployment

#130

Post by melvinroest » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 5:18 PM UTC

eqdw wrote: post #124

melvinroest wrote: post #24

I'm honestly experiencing this as a CS grad in the Dutch job market. I find it weird and frustrating. I've noticed why: 1. Companies don't dare to value creativity [1]. University is so liberal and the job market is so the opposite. 2. Most companies can't value a CS degree. The exception is when enough people in the company did a CS degree and that's a lot more rare than I thought. 3. University didn't teach me to f…

I had the same problem in Canada. Then I moved to the US. Now I have recruiters begging me to come work at their company at least once a week. You should move to the US, it'll be much easier to find work

I wanted to go to the US for at least 4 years now, and I've applied to a lot of US companies.

It's tough as a European CS grad to do that (or I suppose at least when you're me). You can't just move to the US. Not as an above average CS grad with some experience in web development and code bootcamp instructor.

I even applied to Full Stack Academy 2 years ago while I was still teaching at The New York Code + Design Academy as a lead instructor, they never sent anything, and I think that's mostly because a H1B visa is hard to get for a company, not because I lacked the skills (that's my optimistic guess anyways).