I Accidentally Uncovered a Nationwide Scam on Airbnb • Hacker News Board

Re: I Accidentally Uncovered a Nationwide Scam on Airbnb

#11

Post by jrochkind1 » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 2:14 PM UTC

as-j wrote: post #6

Why didn't the journalist contact Airbnb in the first place? Or after he arrived at the 2nd place and it wasn't the location listed/promised. (yes I can understand being tired, frustrated, etc) Last minute host cancellation is the one thing they can actually something they help with since it ruins the marketplace for them. As a host I've had my set of horror storied interacting with Airbnb. Most hosts do try really h…

Of course the scammers are good at "frog in the boiling water" level of scam, so it always seems like it will be easier and "I guess good enough" to just keep going.

But I don't think I would ever try to contact AirBnB "in the moment" (when I'm in a city not my own and need a place to sleep and trying to do whatever I'm in the city to do), since I've been trained to expect that any support from such companies is going to be very inconvenient, take lots of my energy, and take at a minimum hours (if not days) to resolve. Hours I don't have, when i'm trying to enjoy my vacation or whatever.

If AirBnB wants customers to contact the company immediately whenever anything looks fishy, they probably need to educate customers on that (with examples of what sorts of fishy things they'd like you to contact them asap about), as well as providing enough resources to customer support such that doing so actually helps instead of just adding more headache to an already painful situation. But I doubt AirBnB really wants customers to do that.

From the OP for instance:

> If a host asks a guest to stay at a property that’s different from the one they rented, Airbnb advises the guest to request a cancellation if they’re “not okay with the switch.” In both cases, the rules favor a would-be scammer and place the onus on guests who have just parachuted into an unfamiliar locale with their luggage and have nowhere else to stay that night.

Re: I Accidentally Uncovered a Nationwide Scam on Airbnb

#12

Post by yrro » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 2:15 PM UTC

CodesInChaos wrote: post #7

yrro wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm somewhat surprised that this would be permitted by the card issuer. Aside from that... why aren't Airbnb detecting when multiple properties have very similar photos and investigating this themselves? (Of course they may be, and these examples are cases where they didn't pull the fraudulent listing).

It's largely the card issues fault. They charge a fee for each chargeback and punish or increase the fees for merchants who receive many chargebacks, so merchants try to avoid chargebacks, which includes banning everybody who uses them.

If a business bans customers who charge back after being defrauded then the fault is with the business, not the card issuer.

What surprises me is that the card issuers don't come down harder on businesses with this practice. I suppose Airbnb is a pretty large customer (of the card issuers) and so aren't so easy to influence, however...

Re: I Accidentally Uncovered a Nationwide Scam on Airbnb

#13

Post by ipython » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 2:17 PM UTC

mattpavelle wrote: post #5

Why don't companies like AirBNB who have a lot to lose (reputation wise) from a (small?) number of scammers sue those scammers into oblivion? Not only are they violating the TOS but they are committing fraud, and likely breaking a few other laws. AirBNB must know who they are as those scammers are getting paid, right? It would be expensive for AirBNB (they would certainly lose money) but it can't cost more than the r…

Why would they care? They're applying the Fight Club formula.

Take the number of listings, A, multiply by the small proportion of scam listings, B, multiply by the average refund we post, C. A times B times C equals X. If X ... well, who cares about X, it doesn't matter - people will still book with us anyway.

Re: I Accidentally Uncovered a Nationwide Scam on Airbnb

#14

Post by yrro » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 2:18 PM UTC

mattpavelle wrote: post #5

Why don't companies like AirBNB who have a lot to lose (reputation wise) from a (small?) number of scammers sue those scammers into oblivion? Not only are they violating the TOS but they are committing fraud, and likely breaking a few other laws. AirBNB must know who they are as those scammers are getting paid, right? It would be expensive for AirBNB (they would certainly lose money) but it can't cost more than the r…

Most people will never read this sort of article. And frankly it seems like Airbnb is perfectly happy to not rock the boat and continue to slurp up their fat percentage share of the fraud that they abet...

Re: I Accidentally Uncovered a Nationwide Scam on Airbnb

#15

Post by lotsofpulp » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 2:23 PM UTC

jrochkind1 wrote: post #9

Well, this certainly makes me want to never book an AirBnB again. You'd think AirBnB would be more alarmed about the reputational and consequent business hit of this sort of thing. Maybe they will be after this article?

No, because fixing these scams would increase their expenses and/or decrease income, which would lead to the company being valued lower at their IPO.

The purpose of AirBNB right now is to give the current owners a nice exit. After that occurs, then they can worry about customer service and the related expenses.

Re: I Accidentally Uncovered a Nationwide Scam on Airbnb

#16

Post by bluetidepro » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 2:24 PM UTC

RandomBacon wrote: post #3

kop316 wrote: post #2

I'll ask the dumb question (I don't use AirBnB): why not dispute the charge via a credit card?

Presumably AirBnB would ban the user and the user still wants to be able to use the service in the future.

> the user still wants to be able to use the service in the future.

And this is why Airbnb doesn't care. This is insane to me that they end with "Dealing with Airbnb’s easily exploitable and occasionally crazy-making system is still just a bit cheaper than renting a hotel." after ALL that. It's like the author has stockholm syndrome. I can't wrap my head around why you'd ever use Airbnb again after an experience like that, esp. when hotels are about the same cost.

Re: I Accidentally Uncovered a Nationwide Scam on Airbnb

#17

Post by close04 » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 2:24 PM UTC

ipython wrote: post #13

mattpavelle wrote: post #5

Why don't companies like AirBNB who have a lot to lose (reputation wise) from a (small?) number of scammers sue those scammers into oblivion? Not only are they violating the TOS but they are committing fraud, and likely breaking a few other laws. AirBNB must know who they are as those scammers are getting paid, right? It would be expensive for AirBNB (they would certainly lose money) but it can't cost more than the r…

Why would they care? They're applying the Fight Club formula. Take the number of listings, A, multiply by the small proportion of scam listings, B, multiply by the average refund we post, C. A times B times C equals X. If X ... well, who cares about X, it doesn't matter - people will still book with us anyway.

Plus they also get to kick the problem down the road. If they have to face it, they might as well do it later.

Airbnb should be held responsible via law, not via the expectation that they care about their image. As long as it’s the Airbnb website or app and they are getting a commission, shrugging off issues like this should not be legal.

Re: I Accidentally Uncovered a Nationwide Scam on Airbnb

#18

Post by chrischen » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 2:24 PM UTC

mattpavelle wrote: post #5

Why don't companies like AirBNB who have a lot to lose (reputation wise) from a (small?) number of scammers sue those scammers into oblivion? Not only are they violating the TOS but they are committing fraud, and likely breaking a few other laws. AirBNB must know who they are as those scammers are getting paid, right? It would be expensive for AirBNB (they would certainly lose money) but it can't cost more than the r…

The vast majority of Airbnbs I’ve stayed in were illegal hotels/rentals... only a handful were legit renting out a spare room / couch surfing type deals and the first time I did that I had to pretend I was the host’s college friend.

Airbnb is basically built on shifting liability to shifty people running hotels out of rentals.

Also, pro tip, I’d guess at least 50% of the airbnbs I’ve stayed in do not wash the sheets in a washer (I’ve literally physically observed at least one host lint-roll follow by a spray of fabric freshener).

That being said I still use them to lower my own standards and prices below hotels, but I know what I’m getting into at least.

Re: I Accidentally Uncovered a Nationwide Scam on Airbnb

#19

Post by ceejayoz » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 2:26 PM UTC

kop316 wrote: post #10

CodesInChaos wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's largely the card issues fault. They charge a fee for each chargeback and punish or increase the fees for merchants who receive many chargebacks, so merchants try to avoid chargebacks, which includes banning everybody who uses them.

How on earth is that the card issuer's fault? The chargeback is for the exact fraudulent type of activity described in the article, and the business who allows it should be punished. Heck, that is the primary reason I use my credit card, for this type of protection.

The card issuer could easily institute a "no retaliation" clause in their contracts that forbids deactivating a user's account for a sustained chargeback.

Re: I Accidentally Uncovered a Nationwide Scam on Airbnb

#20

Post by bluetidepro » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 2:27 PM UTC

Mentioned this in another comment, but it blows my mind that the author ends with:

> "Even after a month of digging through public records, scouring the internet for clues, repeatedly calling Airbnb and confronting the man who called himself Patrick, I can’t say I’ll be leaving the platform, either. Dealing with Airbnb’s easily exploitable and occasionally crazy-making system is still just a bit cheaper than renting a hotel."

After an experience like that, I'd spend so much effort warning everyone I know to avoid Airbnb, even with the off chance something like this could happen to them. THIS is exactly why Airbnb doesn't care, the user is so brainwashed into still using the platform even after all that to potentially save a few bucks (which honestly, from what I have seen these days, Airbnb is basically the same cost of a hotel if you buy from any hotel deal site). I just don't understand that logic at all. Fool me once...