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Piper Announces First GA Aircraft with Autoland Capability

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Re: Piper Announces First GA Aircraft with Autoland Capability

#71

Post by eternalny1 »

usrusr wrote: post #67
ceejayoz wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Which would suggest that if you need to be vectored to a runway, the aircraft can negotiate that with ATC automatically (and perhaps ATC can advise which is the most appropriate diversion?) I strongly suspect it just announces itself. "N123FOO DECLARING EMERGENCY; PILOT INCAPACITATED, AUTOLAND ENGAGED; CLEAR RUNWAY 21L; 12 MILES OUT" sort of stuff.

Still makes me wonder: do you really need/want all that automation or would it make more sense to prepare for putting a remote pilot into the loop? Not for virtually holding the stick, but for looking at telemetry, communicating and doing all the high level decisions.

This is what some of the new "fully automated" semi-truck companies are doing.

Remote truckers in an office, similar to a UAV drone pilot.

Re: Piper Announces First GA Aircraft with Autoland Capability

#72

Post by skykooler »

usrusr wrote: post #67
ceejayoz wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Which would suggest that if you need to be vectored to a runway, the aircraft can negotiate that with ATC automatically (and perhaps ATC can advise which is the most appropriate diversion?) I strongly suspect it just announces itself. "N123FOO DECLARING EMERGENCY; PILOT INCAPACITATED, AUTOLAND ENGAGED; CLEAR RUNWAY 21L; 12 MILES OUT" sort of stuff.

Still makes me wonder: do you really need/want all that automation or would it make more sense to prepare for putting a remote pilot into the loop? Not for virtually holding the stick, but for looking at telemetry, communicating and doing all the high level decisions.

If you have a remote pilot then you need some sort of data connection as well; and if that link cuts out the plane needs to be able to continue on its own anyway.

Re: Piper Announces First GA Aircraft with Autoland Capability

#73

Post by skizm »

eternalny1 wrote: post #24

This is a seriously impressive bit of software engineering. It seems as simple as "push a button" to the layman but what happens when: There is a thunderstorm between the airport and the runway The nearest runway is closed due to a blizzard There is a mountain between the normal 3-degree glide-slope and the runway, an "offset approach" There is a 40-knot crosswind You have an engine out That's just a few, I'm a comme…

"Conditions are not suitable for autoland functionality. Please navigate to a location with a clear view of a runway and try again. Sorry for any inconvenience."

Re: Piper Announces First GA Aircraft with Autoland Capability

#74

Post by ceejayoz »

usrusr wrote: post #67
ceejayoz wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Which would suggest that if you need to be vectored to a runway, the aircraft can negotiate that with ATC automatically (and perhaps ATC can advise which is the most appropriate diversion?) I strongly suspect it just announces itself. "N123FOO DECLARING EMERGENCY; PILOT INCAPACITATED, AUTOLAND ENGAGED; CLEAR RUNWAY 21L; 12 MILES OUT" sort of stuff.

Still makes me wonder: do you really need/want all that automation or would it make more sense to prepare for putting a remote pilot into the loop? Not for virtually holding the stick, but for looking at telemetry, communicating and doing all the high level decisions.

It'd have to be as an additional safety measure. Connectivity is by no means guaranteed - you'd be relying on satellite comms in most cases. Maybe when SpaceX's Starlink comes online.

(It'd probably also be significantly more expensive, due to the need for a subscription.)

Re: Piper Announces First GA Aircraft with Autoland Capability

#75

Post by lisper »

eternalny1 wrote: post #24

This is a seriously impressive bit of software engineering. It seems as simple as "push a button" to the layman but what happens when: There is a thunderstorm between the airport and the runway The nearest runway is closed due to a blizzard There is a mountain between the normal 3-degree glide-slope and the runway, an "offset approach" There is a 40-knot crosswind You have an engine out That's just a few, I'm a comme…

From https://www.piper.com/model/m600sls/

"The routing algorithm determines a path to the Final Approach Fix (FAF) of the chosen published approach that avoids terrain, obstacles, and significant weather."

That handles all of your contingencies except an engine failure. If you have an engine failure and a pilot who can't dead-stick a landing you're probably screwed. But you're still no worse off in that case than you would have been without autoland.

Re: Piper Announces First GA Aircraft with Autoland Capability

#76

Post by heelix »

Very cool option. The rocket propelled parashoot ^h^h parachute essentially totals the aircraft when used. Even a crash at post touchdown landing speeds is likely easier on those on board.

The autopilot features available to GA and experimental aircraft are quite impressive for holding things at a specific ask in various weather conditions. Not uncommon to have the autopilot active when flying in IFR conditions to help with some of the workload.

Assuming the plane has GPS, a correct altimeter setting, and airspeed - between the instruments you get a reasonable amount of cross checking for accuracy and enough information to calculate your vector. If you actually fly/land at the speeds recommended, most of the time landing will be pretty uneventful.

Many of the tablet/phone based GPS only solutions will give a pretty solid estimation of engine out glide distance too. You (should) pitch for 'best glide' speeds and in combination with the airport data bank with the GPS unit, know where you can get to. I'll push the 'direct to' nearest button and try for it were it in glide range. This sounds like it just connected all the automation dots.

A good landing is where everyone leaves the plane safely. A great landing allows the plane to be used again. I suspect this is going for a good landing... which is fantastic news for the passenger.

Re: Piper Announces First GA Aircraft with Autoland Capability

#77

Post by o-__-o »

griffinkelly wrote: post #65
eternalny1 wrote: post #24

This is a seriously impressive bit of software engineering. It seems as simple as "push a button" to the layman but what happens when: There is a thunderstorm between the airport and the runway The nearest runway is closed due to a blizzard There is a mountain between the normal 3-degree glide-slope and the runway, an "offset approach" There is a 40-knot crosswind You have an engine out That's just a few, I'm a comme…

I've flown airplanes with solid GA plane autopilot that'll fly down to decision height, but you still have to put in flaps, gear, change throttle. To have an airplane do all that on its own is quite impressive, particularly to do a 'nearest' type input on a Garmin then to land it on the appropriate runway, still confuses me sometimes if its a new airport I've never been at. I'd be interested to know if it declares an…

Why? Airbus and Boeing and even smaller planes like bombedaire have had this capability. With ads-b requirements on all planes it puts GA aircraft in line with jets (ads-b requires transmitting internal information that autopilot also processes)

What I’m trying to say is that the auto land functionality is not a feat, it’s like self parking cars.. been around for 20 years just now cost efficient and safe enough for the masses to use. In a boeing 787, the pilot still needs to squawk 7777 and they should try comms, don’t know why a GA plane would be different..

Re: Piper Announces First GA Aircraft with Autoland Capability

#78

Post by dghughes »

heelix wrote: post #76

Very cool option. The rocket propelled parashoot ^h^h parachute essentially totals the aircraft when used. Even a crash at post touchdown landing speeds is likely easier on those on board. The autopilot features available to GA and experimental aircraft are quite impressive for holding things at a specific ask in various weather conditions. Not uncommon to have the autopilot active when flying in IFR conditions to he…

>...parashoot

A typo but that slip created a great brand name for a rocket-propelled parachute the "ParaShoot".

Re: Piper Announces First GA Aircraft with Autoland Capability

#79

Post by o-__-o »

Stevvo wrote: post #52
eternalny1 wrote: post #24

This is a seriously impressive bit of software engineering. It seems as simple as "push a button" to the layman but what happens when: There is a thunderstorm between the airport and the runway The nearest runway is closed due to a blizzard There is a mountain between the normal 3-degree glide-slope and the runway, an "offset approach" There is a 40-knot crosswind You have an engine out That's just a few, I'm a comme…

In the case of the mountain, the avionics have a terrain database built in, so it can follow an LPV WAAS approach from a fix above the terrain. I don't know if this can deal with the engine out, but in theory there isn't any reason it couldn't. There is an IPad app called "Xavion". With an engine out, Xavion will calculate an approach for you follow to a suitable airport, based on the aircraft's best glide speed + re…

Head and tailwinds are real

Re: Piper Announces First GA Aircraft with Autoland Capability

#80

Post by o-__-o »

usrusr wrote: post #67
ceejayoz wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Which would suggest that if you need to be vectored to a runway, the aircraft can negotiate that with ATC automatically (and perhaps ATC can advise which is the most appropriate diversion?) I strongly suspect it just announces itself. "N123FOO DECLARING EMERGENCY; PILOT INCAPACITATED, AUTOLAND ENGAGED; CLEAR RUNWAY 21L; 12 MILES OUT" sort of stuff.

Still makes me wonder: do you really need/want all that automation or would it make more sense to prepare for putting a remote pilot into the loop? Not for virtually holding the stick, but for looking at telemetry, communicating and doing all the high level decisions.

FYI all major airlines have a sat link to their planes with monitoring. While they don’t have a remote fly by wire link, they can load live data from a plane into a sim and have a pilot on the ground troubleshoot with the troubled craft
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