Spain will prevent “digital republic” in Catalonia • Hacker News Board

Re: Spain will prevent “digital republic” in Catalonia

#111

Post by gumby » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 1:49 PM UTC

mikece wrote: post #4

Slightly off topic, but is there a good, short summary of why Catalonia wants to separate from Spain? I would think this would enhance the standing of the EU as it weakens the power of one of its larger members. Heck, wouldn’t it be in the interest of nefarious EU types to have countries like Spain, Italy, Germany, and France and their regions/states/departments become member States or autonomous regions within the E…

Ignoring the Catalan issue specifically: the members of the EU are themselves states so would be unhappy with the precedent of any of the other states breaking apart as it might set a precedent.

Thus none of the arguments against Scottish independence from the UK was that Spain said it would oppose Scotland joining the EU on its own as that would be a precedent for Catalonia. (Scotland might get a “sympathy pass” if they tried it post brexit, but perhaps not).

I agree that the EUnwoukd operate better with a larger number of smaller members but there’s no chance of that in my lifetime, unfortunately.

Re: Spain will prevent “digital republic” in Catalonia

#112

Post by bluGill » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 1:49 PM UTC

yiyus wrote: post #93

bluGill wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Check with a lawyer for details, but the best way to describe it is the EU can do little about data once it is outside of the EU: their laws don't apply elsewhere. They have ways around this. If you have a EU presence (ie an office) that presence gets into trouble if data is sent outside the EU without a lot of care - this includes care to ensure the foreign government of where you send the data won't get it (which m…

> None of the above applies to this case though because presumably it is the person in question sending his own data outside the EU. There isn't much they can do about that. Not at all. The problem here is that the Catalan government took advantage of their power position and used official data to fill the database of this "digital republic". This is precisely what this law disallows. They can still hold servers wher…

I stand corrected

Re: Spain will prevent “digital republic” in Catalonia

#113

Post by ahbyb » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 1:54 PM UTC

justin66 wrote: post #90

ahachete wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what? Also do Galicia, País Vasco, and many other regions and parts of Spain. And there's nothing wrong with that. In fact, it makes Spain a richer and culturally richer place. I love this diversity. But this is not related to secession at all.

> So what? Also do Galicia, País Vasco, and many other regions and parts of Spain. A complete list would include the Basques, many of whom would be happy to secede. We aren't talking about complete consensus and universally held beliefs. > But this is not related to secession at all. The idea that cultural differences - like language, but there are definitely others - are unrelated to a desire for secession, and it's…

>A complete list would include the Basques

País Vasco = Basque Region

Re: Spain will prevent “digital republic” in Catalonia

#114

Post by justin66 » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 1:57 PM UTC

ahachete wrote: post #110

justin66 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So what? Also do Galicia, País Vasco, and many other regions and parts of Spain. A complete list would include the Basques, many of whom would be happy to secede. We aren't talking about complete consensus and universally held beliefs. > But this is not related to secession at all. The idea that cultural differences - like language, but there are definitely others - are unrelated to a desire for secession, and it's…

I think you read me wrong. I'm not denying that cultural reasons might be valid to support secession. I'm saying that having a different culture or language does not imply that you want or need to secede. Indeed, in my opinion, it is the opposite and leads to a richer and more diverse country.

Ah, I did misunderstand you then, or something.

Re: Spain will prevent “digital republic” in Catalonia

#115

Post by coldtea » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 2:01 PM UTC

yiyus wrote: post #70

coldtea wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about where the data are, but which organization is hosting them and for what purpose. If one wanted to make a "digital freedonia" they could start a service called "freedonia citizens registry" for example, and have people register there, coordinate, talk, etc -- whether the server was in Japan or Argentina or California wouldn't matter much for those purposes... The "host outside" part is so that the Spani…

The location is important if it involves data from the public administration. Nobody can avoid that "freedonia citizens registry" you talk about, but the regional government cannot take official census data and use it to fill Fredonia's database.

>Nobody can avoid that "freedonia citizens registry" you talk about, but the regional government cannot take official census data and use it to fill Fredonia's database.

What's stopping them? (besides a jurisdiction they don't recognize and want to secede from)?

Re: Spain will prevent “digital republic” in Catalonia

#116

Post by ahachete » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 2:09 PM UTC

goatinaboat wrote: post #87

ahachete wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many alleged reasons why some people from Catalonia want to secede from Spain. They all probably boil down to the perspective that they are a "rich" region and they will do better on their own. Similar to Brexit. Probably, same wrong perspective. Irrespective of this, Spanish Constitution has a very strong enforcement of Spain's sovereignty and unity. It belongs to all Spanish people. So if that is to be al…

The separatists do not want to proceed either way, so they are trying to do it "unilaterally". Similarly a vote for Scottish independence should have included the entire UK, the difference being of course the likely outcome! There is a lot of this sentiment throughout the EU and the Spanish do not want to be the ones who open the floodgates.

Scottish can do a referendum by themselves because that's allowed by their laws, and goes back to historical reasons. In Spain, the Constitution does not allow for a part of Spain to decide secession. It's very different stories.

Re: Spain will prevent “digital republic” in Catalonia

#117

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 2:10 PM UTC

charlysl wrote: post #91

OP here. Given that I posted this, I think I that I should share my opinion. I am Spanish and against Catalonian independence, so hopelesly biased, I fear. I want to keep this short and cut to what I believe is the essence of the problem and how I think that all this will play out. Given the power assymetry, hugely favourable to Spain, the only chance for Catalonian independence is to get external support that will t…

[deleted]

Re: Spain will prevent “digital republic” in Catalonia

#118

Post by enriquto » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 2:57 PM UTC

ahachete wrote: post #110

justin66 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So what? Also do Galicia, País Vasco, and many other regions and parts of Spain. A complete list would include the Basques, many of whom would be happy to secede. We aren't talking about complete consensus and universally held beliefs. > But this is not related to secession at all. The idea that cultural differences - like language, but there are definitely others - are unrelated to a desire for secession, and it's…

I think you read me wrong. I'm not denying that cultural reasons might be valid to support secession. I'm saying that having a different culture or language does not imply that you want or need to secede. Indeed, in my opinion, it is the opposite and leads to a richer and more diverse country.

> having a different culture or language does not imply that you want or need to secede.

Indeed. But in spain this is just impossible.

As a staunch pro-independence supporter, I'm not for that option as a matter of principle, but of practicality. If the spanish state saw catalan language as a legitimate part of its own culture, I would feel comfortable being spanish. Yet, it seems to me absolutely impossible and utopical to change spanish culture towards that. I have heard too many times spanish people arrogantly say "I speak spanish because I am in Spain, you are being impolite by using catalan". Of course, idiot! we in spain speak catalan. If anything, catalan is a uniquely spanish language because it is not much spoken elsewere, unlike spanish, which has a strong presence in the world. But to no avail. I have given up in despair. The spanish psyche is inherently incapable to accept this idea. The only feasible way that I see to avoid the complete disappearance of the catalan language is by having our own state, and thus I fight for independence.

Re: Spain will prevent “digital republic” in Catalonia

#119

Post by leereeves » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 2:58 PM UTC

professorTuring wrote: post #94

yeahforsureman wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Better stick to the facts rather than partisan polemics and distortion. They made Github take down an app for spreading information on and organizing demonstrations . These demonstrations have been by and large peaceful. Like it or not, freedom of speech and assembly are fundamental and human rights under the international commitments (ECHR, EU Fundamental Rights Charter etc.) Spain has entered into. What this looks…

> Like it or not, freedom of speech and assembly Completely agree, but the investigation goes toward how this group is using this assemblies to promote disorders, chaos and unlawful activities. Each of the manifestation in Catalonia and in Madrid have been approved and we have been able to see hundred of people fighting for their beliefs. We will agree that promoting criminal activities doesn't help Catalonian cause,…

> We will agree that promoting criminal activities doesn't help Catalonian cause, and that should be investigated.

The American Revolution was a criminal activity. Gandhi, Martin Luther King, and Nelson Mandela were all deemed criminal and jailed. The protests in Hong Kong right now are considered criminal activities.

So no, we will not agree that "promoting criminal activities doesn't help" a cause.

I have no opinion on or interest in Catalonian independence, but if you want to make a case against it, you'll need to try a different approach. It's neither surprising nor informative when ruling governments call independence movements criminal.

Re: Spain will prevent “digital republic” in Catalonia

#120

Post by yiyus » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 3:10 PM UTC

AllegedAlec wrote: post #57

kuu wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And your reply shows how selfish you are. As the majority does not want to do as I want, I take my way, without any other consideration. Even the catalan people is not supporting this as a majority, you're ruling without considering the 50% of catalonian people.

I don't see how it's selfish. If you believe that something is wrong, it's your moral imperative to try to rectify a situation, regardless of what others think about it.

> regardless of what others think about it

This is why it is selfish.