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Police Owe Nothing to Man Whose Home They Blew Up, Appeals Court Says

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Re: Police Owe Nothing to Man Whose Home They Blew Up, Appeals Court Says

#101

Post by gumby »

There’s an interesting lack of nuance in the decision, perhaps due to the path taken by the plaintiff.

We all pay a price for police work (taxes, of course, plus some inconvenience At times). But this ruling says there neeed not be feedback to determine proportionality.

Some crimes are not worth addressing. We could put automatic speeeding enforcers in every car, but we don’t. Famously we could eliminate passenger risk on air flights by forcing everybody to fly naked with no hand luggage, strapped to the seats, but people aren’t interested in that much security. Surrender in warfare is a cost/benefit decision.

But, particularly in the US, the feedback loops at all levels (determining what’s a crime, what punishment is worth enforcing, which offenses are worth prosecuting, etc) runs open loop, with the obvious result.

Re: Police Owe Nothing to Man Whose Home They Blew Up, Appeals Court Says

#102

Post by concordDance »

smcl wrote: post #17
epistasis wrote: post #7

> Authorities say the suspect stole two belts and a shirt from a Walmart. After he left the store, police say, he broke into Lech's house for protection and was firing at officers with a handgun. Eventually, SWAT officers entered the home and apprehended him. ... > The court noted that if police officers "willfully or wantonly" destroy property, they can be sued in a civil tort case. Lech tried to pursue that legal a…

Precisely. The Police are keen to do little "viral" stunts like shooting hoops with kids or buying shoes for homeless guys (ok, fine things to do) ... but when it really comes down to stuff that actually matters - the countless killings and general misery they cause to minorities - they close ranks and put on a united front, and often have the audacity to play the victim. This is why "ACAB" takes hold. They 100% get…

> general misery they cause to minorities

And also non-minorities. According to Scott Alexander the rate of killings per police encounter in the USA is similar for both black and white people.

Re: Police Owe Nothing to Man Whose Home They Blew Up, Appeals Court Says

#103

Post by wil421 »

I’m sure no one will read that but a Reddit comment pointed out the Homeowners insurance is covering the damages to the house. The guys son was renting the house from his dad and failed to get renters insurance. The sons stuff is not covered.

PSA: Always get renters insurance. Flood, fires, vandalism, and I guess police damage can happen.

Re: Police Owe Nothing to Man Whose Home They Blew Up, Appeals Court Says

#104

Post by Konnstann »

nvahalik wrote: post #73
Dumblydorr wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do they deserve massive power? That was not constitutionally mandated, it is local, state, and national politics related to drugs and motor traffic that seems to have given cops now more violence and also more ubiquity. What if police didn't have outsized reactions to recreational drug use or minor non violent offenses? What if they weren't getting their revenue from seizing assets and catching motorists for arbi…

> Why do they deserve massive power? They don't. We've given it to them willingly. It has been granted to them by every person who has chosen to "outsource" dealing with their problems to the police. Loud neighbor? Call the cops. Something doesn't look right at the house down the street? Call the cops. Someone breaking into your home? Call the cops. As a society, many, many of us have forgotten how (or even why) we o…

Wait what do you do when someone breaks into your house? Grab a bat and go fight them? That's an easy way to get stabbed or shot.

Re: Police Owe Nothing to Man Whose Home They Blew Up, Appeals Court Says

#105

Post by telesilla »

I read this yesterday, it seems apt:

https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/film/paw-patrol-mighty-pu...

The central task of the police, according to classical Foucauldian analysis, has been to thwart and foil the possibility of revolution, the possibility of transgressing the order of capital: “For the bourgeoisie the main danger against which it had to be protected, that which had to be avoided at all costs, was armed uprising, was the armed people, was workers taking to the streets in assault against the government.”

If protecting citizens isn't the first mandate of the police, then it comes as no surprise at the level of force that can be deemed acceptable as a course of regular action.

Re: Police Owe Nothing to Man Whose Home They Blew Up, Appeals Court Says

#106

Post by chance_state »

mattacular wrote: post #13
lvturner wrote: post #6

I'm just amazed at how the theft of two belts and a shirt from Walmart escalated to the point where a house blew up. It's like something out of a comedy calamity movie. How common is escalation like this during the course of law enforcement? (I'm hoping this is an extreme case?)

This may be an extreme outcome but excessive escalation by the police in America is also the norm. Look at recent encounters with NYPD in the subway over a man not paying the fare (value less than 5$).

>Look at recent encounters with NYPD in the subway over a man not paying the fare (value less than 5$).

For anyone interested in the truth: they were responding to calls of a man with a gun in the train car. This wasn't simply a fare evasion.

Re: Police Owe Nothing to Man Whose Home They Blew Up, Appeals Court Says

#107

Post by concordDance »

afandian wrote: post #90
nvahalik wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why do they deserve massive power? They don't. We've given it to them willingly. It has been granted to them by every person who has chosen to "outsource" dealing with their problems to the police. Loud neighbor? Call the cops. Something doesn't look right at the house down the street? Call the cops. Someone breaking into your home? Call the cops. As a society, many, many of us have forgotten how (or even why) we o…

The dominant group has not only outsourced the 'dealing' but also outsourced the externalities to minority groups. I'm coming from the UK perspective, so our police are less trigger-happy and mostly unarmed but certainly have a very dark side. Historically was more likely that the black / Irish / gay / minority-du-jour person ended up lying at the bottom of the stairs in the police station than a straight white perso…

> It's more likely that the black / Irish / gay / minority-du-jour person ends up lying at the bottom of the stairs in the police station than a straight white person.

Do you have a source on this?

The idea that an arrested person is more likely to be injured in police custody if they are one of the listed minorities in the 21st century in the UK is very surprising to me.

Re: Police Owe Nothing to Man Whose Home They Blew Up, Appeals Court Says

#108

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

belenos46 wrote: post #88
YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, I think assault rifles cannot be legally owned by civilians in the US. I'm not from, or living there so corrections are welcome but I remember that the Texas gunman had a special setup that allowed his weapons to fire in automatic mode, or something close to.

No. That is incorrect. Even fully automatic long-guns (think AK47, AR-15 with a full-auto mod) can be owned legally after paying for the license with the ATF.

Thank you for the correction. Kind of shocked though.

Re: Police Owe Nothing to Man Whose Home They Blew Up, Appeals Court Says

#109

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

homonculus1 wrote: post #81
refurb wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. There is no federal “assault weapons” laws, they expired in 2004. In most states you can purchase one, some states (CA, NY,CT) have banned them.

"Assault weapons" is a purposely misleading term designed to generate the confusion with "assault rifles" that you're currently experiencing. Assault rifles are indeed illegal to purchase without extensive paperwork and fees, and then only if the weapon itself was registered and grandfathered in before 1986. These weapons are heavily regulated and cost tens of thousands of dollars, despite being effectively never use…

I originally wrote "assault weapons" in my comment then changed that to "assault rifles" because I'm fairly certain what the latter, is but not so much the former. Maybe the OP was responding to that earlier version? If so, apologies for the confusion.

Re: Police Owe Nothing to Man Whose Home They Blew Up, Appeals Court Says

#110

Post by claudeganon »

eloff wrote: post #98
epistasis wrote: post #7

> Authorities say the suspect stole two belts and a shirt from a Walmart. After he left the store, police say, he broke into Lech's house for protection and was firing at officers with a handgun. Eventually, SWAT officers entered the home and apprehended him. ... > The court noted that if police officers "willfully or wantonly" destroy property, they can be sued in a civil tort case. Lech tried to pursue that legal a…

That doesn't seem out of control. This man was firing at police. That warrants a SWAT response. You've got a very high risk of officers getting killed. What is fucked up is that there's no law that requires the government to compensate the homeowner.

Maybe just let the guy run off with the clothes in the first place? The idea that we have to defend a corporation’s property rights at the level of a SWAT team having a street battle with a shoplifter is the height of militarized insanity.
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