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Twitter to ban political advertising

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Re: Twitter to ban political advertising

#821
post #666

In Denmark we have laws in place that hold news paper editors responsible for printing truth. They don’t always succeed, but they try to, and when they do fail they admit it and apologise. This is what has kept our society well informed and critical thinking for a hundred years. It’s also allowed for different sides of things, because you can interpret things like socioeconomic statistics and facts differently and wr…

The lowest level of truth telling is stating facts, but even stating facts can be extremely manipulative. If I were to say: "2x as many white Americans were killed by police as black Americans in 2018." This a true fact. If I take note of the fact that black Americans only constitute 13% of the population, then I can say "A black American is 2.3x as likely as a white American to be killed by police." This is also a t…

But from what I've been taught in school, news articles should always aim to state only the facts as they have happened without trying to draw conclusions, show only one side of the story or inject the bias of the reporter. As long as you have journalists and editors able to do their jobs, stating facts doesn't become an exercise in pushing your narrative as you describe but simple reporting of "what happened" or "what has been said". In your specific example, you would report only on the actual statistical figures released, without trying to inject probabilities or percentages which are pushing your analysis and view of the data.

News outlets are then free to print articles containing opinions, studies and conclusions, but this are called editorials and not news articles, and by definition they do carry the opinion of the writer and his/her innate bias on the matter. Even in this case, saying something false is different from interpreting the data or facts at hand. For example, you could write and publish an editorial examining the same statistics as before and come up with the conclusion that there might be a racial bias - some people might agree, some people might not, but it's still an opinion based on hard data and doesn't contain a lie. If you, however, started saying that it's all a plot orchestrated by the reptilians running society to make you think that there's a racial bias, that would indeed be a lie with no factual basis and should be punishable.

There are facets and sides to every story you tell, but reducing everything down to the point where you conflate news reporting, opinions and lies is, imho, stupid.

Re: Twitter to ban political advertising

#822

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't discredit anti-vaxxers with speech. Same with flat-earthers. Same with fascists. You know what works? De-platforming them. Not giving them a voice in the public discourse. Not taking anti-vaxxers seriously and placing them at the same level as doctors because ''both sides'' and ''free speech''. What has been proven again and again is that bad information drives out good, because it's so, so much easier to w…

> You know what works? De-platforming them. Not giving them a voice in the public discourse Many people (me included) find this approach very unpalatable because of how inherently authoritarian it is. (Ironically, this suggestion often comes from the same people who are concerned by how underrepresented some groups are in the public discourse and how the voices of those groups are not heard, and want to artificially…

Wait, de platforming is very different than censorship.

Examples: Should climate change deniers be given the same space as actual science?

Should communists (to not only focus on far right) be invited to every serious talk about economy?

Re: Twitter to ban political advertising

#823
post #779
post #768

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/may/10/and-the...

"just one in six Danes consider themselves a feminist" "The Best Countries for Women is a perception-based ranking based on the responses of nearly 9,000 women who filled out surveys for the 2019 Best Countries rankings. The ranking is derived from a compilation of five equally weighted country attributes: care about human rights, gender equality, income equality, progress and safety." Combined they make the statemen…

Labelling yourself a non-feminist and truly caring about gender equality is a paradox unless you have an incorrect view of what feminism is.

Re: Twitter to ban political advertising

#824
post #772
post #666

In Denmark we have laws in place that hold news paper editors responsible for printing truth. They don’t always succeed, but they try to, and when they do fail they admit it and apologise. This is what has kept our society well informed and critical thinking for a hundred years. It’s also allowed for different sides of things, because you can interpret things like socioeconomic statistics and facts differently and wr…

Danish lawyer here. We have rather usual defamation laws regarding libel and slander. I am not sure they differ from other European or American laws in any way that hold Danish media to higher standards. Even publishing true information can be a violation of our criminal code, for example certain information about private life or about past criminal convictions. All in all, though, I believe we have wide freedom of p…

That's veeery different than having a law that obliges news to say the truth!!!!

Re: Twitter to ban political advertising

#825
post #759
post #733

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Denmark? You mean one of the least feminist countries in the developed world? Not to mention the openly racist narrative about immigrants in public media. Compared to other Scandinavian countries the Danish media is extremely toxic so not sure about portraiting it as a role model in "well informed and critical thinking".

You seem to be confusing lack of polically correct lies with anti-feminism and racism.

That's the thing. Danish media hates political correctness, for good and evil. It doesn't hesitate to publish numbers that indirectly fuel undemocratic narratives, even if they are true. I personally think we should be PC in those cases and think about what effects it will have on society.

Re: Twitter to ban political advertising

#826
post #779
post #768

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/may/10/and-the...

"just one in six Danes consider themselves a feminist" "The Best Countries for Women is a perception-based ranking based on the responses of nearly 9,000 women who filled out surveys for the 2019 Best Countries rankings. The ranking is derived from a compilation of five equally weighted country attributes: care about human rights, gender equality, income equality, progress and safety." Combined they make the statemen…

Here you have a perfect example of how truth is socially constructed. Keep discussing and hopefully some consensual truth will emerge... Maybe... And not for long...

Re: Twitter to ban political advertising

#827
post #784

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The lowest level of truth telling is stating facts, but even stating facts can be extremely manipulative. If I were to say: "2x as many white Americans were killed by police as black Americans in 2018." This a true fact. If I take note of the fact that black Americans only constitute 13% of the population, then I can say "A black American is 2.3x as likely as a white American to be killed by police." This is also a t…

But these really aren't the type of lies that people consider fake news. Yeah, all the things you've written are facts, and their interpretations are what we call opinions. I agree with you that all of these statements, since they're true, should be allowed without a question. People still need to think and be critical. I just took a look at a long list of lies by your current President. It has nothing to do with fac…

This. The march to authoritarianism accelerates when people accept the meme that the truth is unknowable. So they simply accept the reality put forth by the autocrat.

The most basic kind of truths are facts. We at least need to agree on those as best we can first. And then apply critical thinking on the the squishier stuff on top.

Re: Twitter to ban political advertising

#828

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with degrees of truth is that they aren't composable into an argument. I can chain together a handful of things that are 99% true and arrive at an absurd conclusion because the 1% is the interesting bit. In this context, the question is whether something is political speech or something else. What is included and excluded from that category will get pretty interesting. We saw the same thing with compelled…

> The problem with degrees of truth is that they aren't composable into an argument. I can chain together a handful of things that are 99% true and arrive at an absurd conclusion because the 1% is the interesting bit. For a general view: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Probabilistic_logic Bayesian side: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/A_priori_probability https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Bayesian_inference (Bayesian Updating)

No, there are formal systems for handling uncertainty, Bayesian inference, fuzzy logic etc. Even informally we do apply similar rules all the time (though we are not free of biases)

Re: Twitter to ban political advertising

#829

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is obviously an upside and a downside. The platitude that "freedom isn't free" is something that seems to be lost on critics of the effects of liberty. I don't think the free speech absolutism present in the US was ever meant to suggest that there isn't such thing as undesirable speech, but rather that the potential for tyranny under regulated speech is a danger well worth avoiding at any cost. In addition to t…

>In addition to that, America is a country that works forwards from principles much more often than European nations, which very often work backwards from objectives. Have any examples to back this up? I dont even necessarily disagree with your original argument, but can we get away from the Europe vs America debate that always pops up on this board as if they can be compared in a reasonable way? Europe is made up of…

Free speech.

Re: Twitter to ban political advertising

#830
post #666

In Denmark we have laws in place that hold news paper editors responsible for printing truth. They don’t always succeed, but they try to, and when they do fail they admit it and apologise. This is what has kept our society well informed and critical thinking for a hundred years. It’s also allowed for different sides of things, because you can interpret things like socioeconomic statistics and facts differently and wr…

The UK have self-regulating press.

sigh

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