Microsoft Access: The Database Software That Won't Die • Hacker News Board

Re: Microsoft Access: The Database Software That Won't Die

#241

Post by TeMPOraL » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 7:45 AM UTC

blihp wrote: post #225

specialist wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was never more productive than using Access. Once wrote a full budgeting, cost estimating tool. Supposedly impossible. (Access' VBA had an 'eval' function.) We lost something in the switch from "workgroup" (dBase thru Paradox) to client/server. Spoiler: ODBC broke the tight coupling of code and persistence. Spawning monstrous hacks like ORMs and ActiveRecord. What Ted Neward famously called The Vietnam of Computer…

The thing that was lost quite frankly was most of the value that desktop productivity software used to provide before Microsoft consumed the market with Windows. It's not that client/server couldn't provide the same (or even better) value, it's that the companies left standing (think Microsoft, Oracle, IBM etc.) had no interest in providing maximum value to customers. They wanted to extract maximum value from custome…

It's interesting to see that, given that in modern times, Microsoft is the only tech giant that can still build user-empowering software. Not Windows, that's getting dumbed down UX-side. But Office suite still includes Access and Excel, the latter being probably the single highest productivity booster in modern companies (to the chagrin of IT departments).

And you're essentially saying that this is already another order of magnitude worse than what came before Microsoft. Now I wish I was able to see that older software in action.

Re: Microsoft Access: The Database Software That Won't Die

#242

Post by IgniteTheSun » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 7:48 AM UTC

heelix wrote: post #162

louis8799 wrote: post #159

Coming from a banking background, I know that Access is heavily used in the financial industry, including Investment Banks.

My Bride use to work for one of the big 'third bucket' credit card companies. Someone had discovered the northwinds tutorial database, changed the labels, and reworked the business processes to fit the queries - all tables were left as found. The best part was eventually, after acquisition, they had a directive that all databases must be ported over to Oracle... and some soul got to see the horrors of what was done a…

This has to be my favorite story on this topic today. Triumph and tragedy in the same instance - tragedy that the person mentioned didn't learn how to use Access properly and triumph in that the person overcame, adapted, and innovated to find a solution.

The second sentence of your post contains both joy and heartache and - in my opinion - could stand alone as a short story for the tech crowd almost on par with the record holder for shortest short story ever.

These are some of the golden nuggets that I used to read Slashdot for 15 years ago and now find on HN.

Re: Microsoft Access: The Database Software That Won't Die

#243

Post by usrusr » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 7:53 AM UTC

EvanAnderson wrote: post #189

campfireveteran wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't rag on it or Access too much because it serves/d a purpose: app and data design for less technical users who are busy doing a million other things. I supported several dozen FMP apps at Stanford Student Housing (R&DE) as it was easy for analysts to make something quickly and worked at the scale needed. Later, they used proper databases, reporting, and app-ish tools. FMP ran on a half dozen early Xserves wh…

I'm not talking-down either one. They're both great tools for their purpose. I've used Access a ton. I guess I'm talking about a cultural difference. It's been my experience that Access devs know when a problem is mismatched for Access (and move to storing data in SQL Server, etc). FileMaker devs seem to press on even when it's clear that the platform isn't capable of supporting their needs. As one anecdote (of sever…

“(Almost) the same SQL as the big boy toys" was the most redeeming quality of Access. It somehow managed to be beginner accessible and productive without dumbing down, reinventing the wheel skillset lock-in.

Had Microsoft gone for a more custom interface like Filemaker instead of just nicely packaging up more general tools, my entire life might be very different and probably not better, even 15 years after having touched Access for the last time.

Re: Microsoft Access: The Database Software That Won't Die

#244

Post by TeMPOraL » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 7:54 AM UTC

ako wrote: post #229

benhurmarcel wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except it requires your IT department to contract it, which makes it a non-starter for most "shadow IT" uses where Access excels.

Access running on your pc is also there because of your IT department.

Access running on your PC is because it comes bundled with MS Office suite, which is installed for you to have Word, Excel, PowerPoint and perhaps Outlook available. It's a great thing Microsoft didn't make it easy to unbundle them all, otherwise lot of places with Access wouldn't have it.

Re: Microsoft Access: The Database Software That Won't Die

#245

Post by IgniteTheSun » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 7:55 AM UTC

perl4ever wrote: post #182

matheusmoreira wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would anyone use Access in 2019 when they can use SQLite instead? Is it because Access has a graphical interface?

This is like saying why would anyone use a Toyota RAV4 when they can get a 400+ hp LS3 crate engine from Chevy. Is it because of the quality of the dashboard plastics?

I really like this analogy. The question you were responding to has been asked - in one form or another - so many times on this thread that its clear that those developing software and business tools are completely out of touch with users and power users of those tools.

Re: Microsoft Access: The Database Software That Won't Die

#246

Post by ie21 » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 7:55 AM UTC

F_J_H wrote: post #213

alkonaut wrote: post #12

Is there a modern and/or open alternative to this? E.g a SQLite + electron or local web client thing where you could build a simple inventory or similar but you should also be able to scale it to client server when the need occurs 10 years down. Note that any number of cloud startups don’t count as an alternative to access. When these things start it’s as an excel sheet with data that no one will go through the enter…

Check out Oracle application Express (APEX). HN loves to hate Oracle, but it is a great tool for a building crud applications and dashboards.

This. Its interesting to read this thread mentioning DB and systems issues that are solves in Oracle APEX. We built an ERP system for a oil&gas client, including in the requirements, apps for monitoring gas values at the plant, by simply connecting to the mesurment equipment API. All that on Oracle XE, free version that comes with APEX. Three weeks to build apps, five months to implement in the company. I'm thinking software is not the problem, its people, politics in the company, resistance to change, really everthing but tech. We're solving business problems, helping the company cut costs, increase speed and streamline processes. Tech is a tool - there are so many other obstacles to solving problems other then tech. Thanks for mentioning Apex, and Oracle, in a thread about DB-s that fails to mention the company building databases for 40 years, that run for instance at CERN, to name but one.

Re: Microsoft Access: The Database Software That Won't Die

#247

Post by TeMPOraL » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 7:59 AM UTC

benhurmarcel wrote: post #88

james_s_tayler wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't Airtable considered like modern day Access?

Except it requires your IT department to contract it, which makes it a non-starter for most "shadow IT" uses where Access excels.

Not to mention, Access won't randomly break because Microsoft isn't likely to Move Fast and Break Things or suddenly get acquihired. And it will work over LAN even when you lose your Internet access. And, all your data - including schemas and forms you've made - is in actual file.

Re: Microsoft Access: The Database Software That Won't Die

#248

Post by antod » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 8:01 AM UTC

mamcx wrote: post #56

phs318u wrote: post #7

The reason that both Access and Excel use is so prevalent in corporate “shadow IT” land is because there are many parts of the business that have problems for which only a negative or marginal business-case can be made for IT to solve it (given the “get out of bed” costs of most IT departments). It’s a barrier-to-entry problem. Excel and Access are cheap enough and fly under the corporate IT radar (no involvement nee…

My dream is to build a modern take of the fox/dbase family. I starting with the inner language http://tablam.org Access, as concept, is great . Is exactly what many need. But it have a lot of small deficiencies that make it disliked by developers. I have used FoxPro, and it have almost all the right things instead (Fox is Access, but goooood!... except a bit less user friendly). I wish I could dedicate to build this.…

There was a FoxPro inspired Python tool I remember from about 10-15yrs back: https://dabodev.com/

A bit more coding than Access, but it was DB independent on the backend.

Looks like nothing has happened on it for quite a while though.

Re: Microsoft Access: The Database Software That Won't Die

#249

Post by cally » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 8:07 AM UTC

brisance wrote: post #161

james_s_tayler wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't Airtable considered like modern day Access?

Does Airtable still require internet access? That's a non-starter for many businesses which only have intermittent internet access.

really? I mean, I get the aircraft carrier examples above but I reckon most business have internet access now. I reckon (in the UK) loads of one man bands run everything off their phones. They're probably more likely to have access to the internet than MS Access.

Re: Microsoft Access: The Database Software That Won't Die

#250

Post by Doctor_Fegg » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 8:11 AM UTC

> a special crowd that’s rarely targeted these days: technical people who aren’t serious coders

Flash had a bit of this too, especially in the ActionScript 1 days - albeit from a design rather than a business background. So too did every 8-bit micro that booted into an adequate BASIC. It’s a shame that we’ve largely lost this.