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Is Stack Exchange in violation of NY labor law by using volunteer moderators?

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Re: Is Stack Exchange in violation of NY labor law by using volunteer moderators?

#141

This would break a lot more services, including a substantial number of Open Source projects and communities (specifically, any that are primarily run by a company rather than a non-profit).

Not just services. It'd also theoretically break (if taken to an extreme):

Wikis, since most wikis don't pay their admins/bureaucrats. Like most of the ones on Wikia, Gamepedia, the NIWA, etc.

Old school fan sites, which often went with volunteer staff teams

Quite a few media/fan run/gaming news sites, which also often have volunteer writers.

etc

Re: Is Stack Exchange in violation of NY labor law by using volunteer moderators?

#142

This would break a lot more services, including a substantial number of Open Source projects and communities (specifically, any that are primarily run by a company rather than a non-profit).

Good. I've had enough of these companies tricking people into working for them for free.

Re: Is Stack Exchange in violation of NY labor law by using volunteer moderators?

#143

Does this hold true for sites like Quora as well?

The process is to employ/pay human moderators, similar to Facebook [1]. They also pay for some content creation [2].

[1] https://help.quora.com/hc/en-us/articles/360001069906-How-do...

[2] https://help.quora.com/hc/en-us/articles/360000673263-Partne...

Re: Is Stack Exchange in violation of NY labor law by using volunteer moderators?

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What state allows for-profit organizations to solicit unpaid volunteer labor from people outside of prison? It’s a pretty obvious violation of Federal law and multiple state laws.

Why should a state be able to stop me from doing whatever I want with my own time? It's my decision to do things with a group of others, not the government's.

Two reasons.

From a social justice perspective, allowing free labor is an insult to human dignity and leech in society. It is often associated with coercive behavior, and when events happen, like “workplace” injuries, society is stuck with cleaning up the mess.

From a revenue perspective, free labor is an untaxed gift to the company, and it’s highly likely that “free” really means compensation by some indirect, off book means.

A corporation isn’t a group of friends. You’re welcome to do anything in a group or charitable endeavor.

Re: Is Stack Exchange in violation of NY labor law by using volunteer moderators?

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All laws start out as simple concepts. Then they need to be applied to reality, where very few situations are simple.

Just like programming. An operating system provide a few set of basic services to applications, but the linux kernel is some gazillion lines of code, because it has to work with reality

> but the linux kernel is some gazillion lines of code, because it has to work with reality

Rather: Because the kernel developers care far too little about keeping it small and minimal.

Re: Is Stack Exchange in violation of NY labor law by using volunteer moderators?

#147
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Reddit moderators are less restricted/directed by Reddit so they fall closer on the spectrum to the guy running a debate club/whatever at the local community centre. I don't think anyone would argue that they're an employee of the community centre, even if the community centre prohibited alcohol at their events.

Yea I mod a sub with a few thousand subs. I definitely shouldn't be subject to labor laws for that work. It's organizing stuff around a hobby, not creating concrete value for or at the discretion of Reddit the business. Some of the bigger subs though should have full time staff on the mod teams however.

I believe the key difference also is that you can just not do your work without reddit really minding (that's how some subs have died). That's very different from Stack Exchange.

Re: Is Stack Exchange in violation of NY labor law by using volunteer moderators?

#148
post #141

This would break a lot more services, including a substantial number of Open Source projects and communities (specifically, any that are primarily run by a company rather than a non-profit).

Not just services. It'd also theoretically break (if taken to an extreme): Wikis, since most wikis don't pay their admins/bureaucrats. Like most of the ones on Wikia, Gamepedia, the NIWA, etc. Old school fan sites, which often went with volunteer staff teams Quite a few media/fan run/gaming news sites, which also often have volunteer writers. etc

It wouldn't kill Wikis, it would just force them to operate as non-profits. Maybe not such a bad change. If they want to be a for-profit, they can still have volunteer writers but no volunteer admins.

Re: Is Stack Exchange in violation of NY labor law by using volunteer moderators?

#149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Would anyone be willing to explain in more detail on how the criteria differ and why this doesn't apply to Open Source companies like Gitlab/Wikipedia/etc? I mean, they don't meet the criteria because they don't. I guess I should ask: why do you think they meet all the criteria? What specific reasons makes you think that?

Well, taking volunteer commits to Gitlab just as an example: - Degree of Control Exercised Gitlab has the final say over every pull request, on what issues they'll consider pull requests for. Gitlab has a code of conduct and can ban contributors that violate that code. Gitlab prioritizes and labels issues that they want volunteers to look at. Seems equivalent to Stack Exchange's moderation queue. - Profit, Loss, and…

Thanks for answering. Good questions. IANAL either, but I figure I can share my perspective.

> Gitlab has the final say over every pull request, on what issues they'll consider pull requests for. Gitlab has a code of conduct and can ban contributors that violate that code. Gitlab prioritizes and labels issues that they want volunteers to look at.

None of that is control the law is talking about. SE exerts control over how much the work the moderators do. e.g. If you don't do enough moderating, you are no longer a moderator. Also, anyone can be a contributor. SE doesn't allow anyone to be a moderator in this case. If I'm not mistaken, you "apply" or are "invited." There is a selection process, a "hiring" committee if you will.

> Gitlab is a for-profit company. Open Source contributions get rolled up into their for-profit enterprise offerings.

GitLab also has programmers doing this work as well. They are investing in this area already. While GitLab benefits from open source contributions, they aren't reliant on it. The suggestion is that if SE suddenly had no more free moderators, they'd have to actually start investing in paid moderators.

> Fixing issues requires a great deal of specialized skill with the codebase, some of which is codebase specific and not generalizable. Individuals can choose to participate (similarly to Stack Exchange), but individuals are not free to pursue any project they want. Participation means following Gitlab's design process and looking at issue labels.

So, actually this is wrong: "but individuals are not free to pursue any project they want". That's the nature of being open source. Contributors can, if they want, start working on something else. That doesn't mean GitLab has to accept their commits, but as a contributor, I can work on something else and still contribute.

> Volunteer developers to Open Source projects often form long-term relationships with the projects they contribute to.

If their code is accepted, it will generally stick around for the life of a project. One could argue that it's very much a long-term relationship with just a single commit. That being said, I think the idea is the committing part that matters. And there you have people that commit one change, and those who commit many.

With SE, moderators all follow the same requirements. With GitLab, a contributor can be defined as a one time committer or someone who has committed hundreds of patches.

> It's true that volunteers don't do all of Gitlab's development, but is that a defense?

I think we can both agree the majority of GitLabs business needs are handled by GitLab's developers it pays. I think it's fair to say they contribute substantially financially to the software development of its product.

The way I look at it is simple. If SE were to hire moderators (which all the social networks I know of do already), would their job and roll be effectively the same as current moderators? I'm pretty sure they would look very similar.

Whereas with GitLab, you can directly compare the two and see that the open source contributors and paid developers aren't effectively the same. Requirements of code quality and passing tests aren't the same thing as minimum time spent doing the programming each month.

I don't see any issues with open source projects suffering from this. Contributors aren't treated like employees. Moderators at SE seem to be, with requirements to show up and meet performance requirements to maintain "employment" as moderators.

Re: Is Stack Exchange in violation of NY labor law by using volunteer moderators?

#150
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> having non-profit designation be the key factor in deciding whether or not someone can volunteer seems like a rule that would have some really negative side-effects. This is literally the distinction discussed in the posted question and is pretty standard law in the US. What negative consequences do you see as a result of this?

Not all Open Source companies are nonprofit. See Redhat Linux, Gitlab, Chromium, Docker. If a volunteer helps triage issues for these projects, is it a violation of labor laws? If only nonprofit Open Source companies can use the benefits of Open Source development -- community involvement, community moderation and support, 3rd-party patches, etc... that's a really big reduction in who can participate in Open Source,…

> See Redhat Linux, Gitlab, Chromium, Docker. If a volunteer helps triage issues for these projects, is it a violation of labor laws?

Perhaps this is an indicator that for-profit companies that solicit volunteer contributions to open source projects should set up a non-profit organization to manage the open source project separately from the for-profit business that sells support and / or provides paid turnkey solutions.

> particularly during a time when we're increasingly worried about Open Source funding and sustainability.

I don't think any of the open source projects owned by for-profit companies you list have sustainability issues. It is possible it would reduce the degree to which for-profit companies accept pull-requests to their open source software , but it might also encourage the adoption of more open governance of corporate run open-source projects. It might also push more volunteer developer hours towards those projects that aren't owned by for-profit interests and help solve some of the sustainability issues those projects face.

> I really like that I can get involved with Gitlab. I don't feel like Gitlab is exploiting me.

The issue is less that volunteers (such as you) are exploited / negatively impacted, since these volunteers are participating voluntarily. The issue is more that allowing companies to have "free employees" unfairly competes with the hiring of people who can't or don't want to volunteer their time.

Since software developers currently enjoy high salaries, you may not see this as much of a downside. However, writers, editors, moderators, photographers and other 'creative' professions often don't see the same levels of compensation as software developers. It seems potentially a little greedy to me to insist that highly paid software developers retain the right to volunteer on a wider range of software projects at the expense of lower salaries for workers in other professions.

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