Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says • Hacker News Board

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#311

Post by romwell » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 10:09 PM UTC

topkai22 wrote: post #305

jdoliner wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The jail that Epstein died in has had one other suicide in the past 40 years. They haven't actually lost someone to suicide 21 years, despite several attempts. They're not incompetent at all at preventing their inmates from committing suicide. So no, the statement that suicide is made practically impossible there isn't based on wrong assumptions, it's very well supported by statistics. Source: https://www.foxnews.com…

"1 suicide and 3 attempted suicides"- that's actually both an insanely low attempt rate and an insanely high completion rate/attempt.

That means that most people didn't even figure out how to attempt one, because the means were taken away.

You should compare with suicides/suicide attempt rates in general population (or general prison population) to make this statement.

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#312

Post by lazyasciiart » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 10:10 PM UTC

loceng wrote: post #62

542458 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's actually fairly normal to not keep people on suicide watch for very long. Full-blown suicide watch is expensive, but furthermore can stress a patient to the point of actually encouraging suicide. Being unable to sleep because your cell lights are kept on 24/7 and you're constantly getting checked on, the humiliation of having to wear a suicide smock, not having sheets on your bed, etc. You can argue that this is…

I understand your point, however I want to rhetorically ask: expensive relative to what? What's a life worth? What's it worth to keep someone alive where there's very high probability that they alone could be linchpin to bring down a network of bad actors?

Relative to the prison staff budget.

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#313

Post by AndrewBissell » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 10:10 PM UTC

Teever wrote: post #307

CharlesColeman wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Usually very rich people have a strong incentive to hire private firms specialized in minimizing the impact of bad stuff like this, and doing so in a very discreet way. I'd be interested in learning about what techniques they use, since they seem like something that ought to be countered.

An interesting comment that I've seen repeated and voted to the top of any post on reddit regarding the Gates-Epstein association is something along the lines of 'Gates is too aloof and nerdy to be interested in the wares that Epstein was peddling.' I've seen it many times and it has always struck me as the kind of spin that PR firm would write and disseminate.

It's shown up in every single HN thread about Gates's ties to Epstein.

Have to say I'm particularly impressed with Reid Hoffman's PR outfit though. By all accounts he was a major Silicon Valley nexus connecting Epstein to Mark Zuckerberg, Elon Musk, and others, yet he managed to stay almost completely out of the headlines and even still hosts a show on NPR about the startup scene.

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#314

Post by malvosenior » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 10:12 PM UTC

Teever wrote: post #307

CharlesColeman wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Usually very rich people have a strong incentive to hire private firms specialized in minimizing the impact of bad stuff like this, and doing so in a very discreet way. I'd be interested in learning about what techniques they use, since they seem like something that ought to be countered.

An interesting comment that I've seen repeated and voted to the top of any post on reddit regarding the Gates-Epstein association is something along the lines of 'Gates is too aloof and nerdy to be interested in the wares that Epstein was peddling.' I've seen it many times and it has always struck me as the kind of spin that PR firm would write and disseminate.

As someone who's been following the Epstein case for some time and having seen different communities deal with it, I think in the case of Gates a lot of people really looked up to him and refuse to believe that he would do this. There are even comments in this thread about it not being Gates' style.

When you look at the whole Epstein story, the people and the patterns, it's pretty clear that Gates was in a very questionable relationship with Epstein. The MIT donations, the senior Gates employee being the executor of Epstein's will, Gates' denials of knowing Epstein before the NYT article hit and his failure to address his flights with Epstein and meetings at his houses, Gates' email to staff about meeting with Epstein and a "beautiful Swedish woman and her 15 year old daughter, late into the night"...

With Gates in particular a lot of people seem willfully ignorant or have a strong desire not to dig deeper. It was a the same with Matt Gronenig. Prince Andrew, Dershkowitz, Wexner... I think every assumes the worst there but a lot of people are struggling to digest their actual heroes turning out to be much less than they thought.

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#315

Post by gridlockd » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 10:13 PM UTC

cc81 wrote: post #170

apetresc wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe in some more run-of-the-mill cases, sure. But even the dimmest staff member must have been well aware that this particular pedophile was on the verge of testifying against an entire network of other pedophiles. If you hate pedophiles so much you're willing to risk your life/career just to let one of them commit suicide, surely you also hate them enough to wait just a little bit longer to prevent a bunch more of…

Why do you think he would witness against anyone? He didn't do that last time as far as I know. And IF people thought he had dirt on people then I would assume he would at least have a basic dead mans switch that would send out the dirt to the press in case of death; to prevent assassinations. Especially if there was an earlier attempt.

The people he had dirt on may not be the same people that would assassinate him. If the honeypot theory is true, then exposing those people doesn't serve the purpose, but it also wouldn't be much of a problem. What's more problematic is the information that only Epstein had and could testify to.

Also, from Epsteins perspective, actually having a dead man switch versus just letting people assume he has one has exactly the same impact.

So why bother setting one up? If the switch goes off, he will be dead, perhaps there will be retaliation against relatives. How would he benefit?

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#316

Post by slimed » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 10:14 PM UTC

lazyasciiart wrote: post #308

slimed wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're acting like Epstein was just another prisoner. People who know a thing or two about the justice system will explain to you how differently high profile prisoners like Epstein are treated. But what could I, a middle class white person, know about the subject? Are you aware that some of us are former prisoners as well?

Convicted terrorists have said that Gitmo and warzones are better than this place. It's also very used to "high profile" prisoners, like El Chapo and accused terrorists picked up in Somalia and transferred back here.

You're right. They are used to it.

They're also used to preventing suicides.

There has only been one other successful suicide in that facility in the four decades it has existed.

Why now? Coincidence?

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#317

Post by IfOnlyYouKnew » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 10:15 PM UTC

CharlesColeman wrote: post #134

simonebrunozzi wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Usually very rich people have a strong incentive to hire private firms specialized in minimizing the impact of bad stuff like this, and doing so in a very discreet way. I am 100% speculating, but I'd guess that's what Jeff Bezos did in relation to his extra-marital affair, and what Bill Gates and others have been doing in relation to Epstein.

> Usually very rich people have a strong incentive to hire private firms specialized in minimizing the impact of bad stuff like this, and doing so in a very discreet way. I'd be interested in learning about what techniques they use, since they seem like something that ought to be countered.

Read "Catch and Kill" by Ronan Farrow, regarding his experience with Weinstein's campaign against the publication of his crimes. It's exactly what you're asking for (the title is the technique's name), It's also a rather entertaining read.

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#318

Post by lazyasciiart » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 10:16 PM UTC

magduf wrote: post #293

shadowgovt wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the problem with conspiracy theories... Avoidable accidents and conspiracy theories have the same fact pattern, which is an overlap of failure modes that should have been preventable but weren't prevented. Was the Titanic disaster a tragic accident borne of negligence... or a conspiracy to assassinate John Jacob Astor and make it look like an accident? A lot had to go wrong to make an unsinkable ship sink. Wh…

I thought the Titanic disaster was pretty well-explained as an accident caused by incompetence and hubris. The ship wasn't "unsinkable"; they just advertised it that way, but it was no match for a big iceberg. The ship was sailing through an area with icebergs, and going fast too, and it was nighttime. IIRC, the captain was in a rush to get to the destination (sorry, it's been a while since I watched Cameron's movie)…

You might be interested in the investigation into the death of Sandra Bland, which also found a disturbing number of things going wrong in the Texas jail system. Or probably any other investigation into any jail/prison in the US. A guy died of dehydration in a county jail in Washington. How ridiculous does that sound? (Keaton Farris, if you want to read more about it).

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#319

Post by romwell » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 10:18 PM UTC

cc81 wrote: post #166

moltensodium wrote: post #107

Yeah, outside of Lee Harvey Oswald this guy was the most important prisoner in the history of the USA. The fact that he just "suicided" in prison and we're all supposed to move on and share links about suicide awareness is utter nonsense. If the corporate media doesn't get to the bottom of this then someone else will, it's just a matter of time. Everyone is so tired of being lied to by authority figures.

What if it just was a suicide? If he had dirt on people would he not arrange so it would be sent out in case of his death? Especially if there was a failed murder attempt just weeks before? And what stops the victims of naming names now? And what would have stopped Epstein of just not talking and just denying?

>What if it just was a suicide?

It makes absolutely no difference.

The only thing they had to do was to keep him alive, and given his health, it was not a hard thing to do. If there were no benefactors, it would've been criminal incompetence. As it stands, incompetence is as likely as if he got killed by an anvil falling from the sky.

To paraphrase: it's as if I gave you a new iPhone to keep for a day, and you returned empty-handed and told me someone stole it from you... because you left it on the edge of the platform at a NYC subway station for the night and (surprise!) it wasn't there in the morning!

In this scenario, it makes no difference whether your friend took it, someone else took it, or it got knocked onto the tracks by accident. What matters is that you ensured that I don't have my phone back.

And that's what happened in the Epstein case. His keepers facilitated his death. The exact manner is irrelevant.

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#320

Post by fiblye » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 10:19 PM UTC

d1zzy wrote: post #257

air7 wrote: post #165

I'm don't buy into conspiracy theories and am a firm advocate for Hanlon's razor but this story is really hard to swallow. This is the passage from the relevant Wikipedia article: > The jail informed the Justice Department, when Epstein was placed in the special housing unit, that he would have a cellmate and that a guard would look into the cell every 30 minutes. These procedures were not followed on the night he di…

That's only extraordinary if you assume that: - those cameras functioned before that night, when they might as well have been broken for months and/or often broke - moving cellmates very rarely results in not having someone else move in in the same day - guards don't usually sleep on their shifts If however, you assume the much more likely situation that the cameras were already broken or often broke, that guards pre…

That’s quite a few assumptions to make. Notably that a prison with such high profile prisoners is fine with cameras that break regularly, but don’t permanently break—just small periods of time, and nobody ever considered to get such a strange problem fixed.

If those cameras failed often, I’m sure they’d have countless hours of videos that spontaneously cut off as proof.