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Thank You, Guido

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Re: Thank You, Guido

#311

Post by robocat »

Grue3 wrote: post #108
skellera wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’d think it would be common sense when writing something that other people will read. We don’t see people writing books in acronyms or omitting words. How come so many people try to use code to show how smart they are?

We don't use code to show how smart we are. We just assume that other developers are as smart as we are. >We don’t see people writing books in acronyms or omitting words. Math books written for mathematicians do this all the time.

> We just assume that other developers are as smart as we are.

I think that excuse falls over when you look at some old code you yourself wrote, and you find that you can't understand it.

That's presuming your smartness doesn't change much over time.

Re: Thank You, Guido

#312

Post by chrisseaton »

brabel wrote: post #219
chrisseaton wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work on Java at a really deep level, and I haven't had to interact with Jigsaw at all. What is it breaking for you?

A lot of things like older versions of Gradle (which at some point was a blocker to move to Java 9, but not now), Groovy (also fixed, but still has some warnings), which we use heavily for tests, several reflection-heavy frameworks (think dependency injection, annotation-processors etc), which to this day require some ugly hacks like --patch-module to "open" packages, JUnit tests (which also need the same hacks to wo…

No I didn’t experience any issues like that myself.

Re: Thank You, Guido

#313

Post by mark-r »

marktangotango wrote: post #298
hinkley wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve ratcheted this up a notch with jr devs. When are you having fun reading someone else’s code? You’re usually there trying to solve a problem. Your plans for the day have gotten away from you. You may even be having a Bad Day. And this is at least doubly true for failing tests. Take pity on the person.

I've also begun to stress this in code reviews and mentoring interaction but the question is; how to present this idea in a way that "early in their career" developers (and not so early) can appreciate? Simply admonishing them about "keep it readable!" isn't effective in my experience. An example that frequently occurrs is decomposing a large method into smaller methods. Okay, there are now more lines of code (due to…

One of the things I love most about Python is the ease of decomposing functions. The ability to return an arbitrary number of objects at the same time makes it really easy.

Python not caring about the type of a parameter makes it easy to share code too.

Re: Thank You, Guido

#314

Post by skywhopper »

skellera wrote: post #45
notkaiho wrote: post #2

"“When asked, I would give people my opinion that maintainable code is more important than clever code,” he said. “If I encountered clever code that was particularly cryptic, and I had to do some maintenance on it, I would probably rewrite it. So I led by example, and also by talking to other people.”" This is very sage advice.

You’d think it would be common sense when writing something that other people will read. We don’t see people writing books in acronyms or omitting words. How come so many people try to use code to show how smart they are?

Much of 18th century English-language literature was an attempt to show how smart the authors were...

Re: Thank You, Guido

#315

Post by Discombulator »

betaby wrote: post #262
matwood wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Java 8+ is so easy to work with I think it bores a lot of people so they go looking for something more. Spring boot + jooq is easy to work with and breaking changes are slow. I'm also coming around on Go. The simplicity was a turn off at first, but now that I've used it to implement a graphql server I like the simplicity. I don't want to have to be a programming language researcher to quickly get work done. IMO Go de…

Java is paid platform without clear pricing, licensing and patents.

Many (most) JDK distributions are free for all usages and fully open source.

Can you give some references for the patents issue you mentioned?

Re: Thank You, Guido

#316

Post by neeleshs »

vbezhenar wrote: post #267
crtlaltdel wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

personally i loath blackbox systems, regardless of how well the docs are written. i want to know how it does things...even if only to satisfy my curiosity.

You can use Spring without all that magic. I, personally, hate Spring Boot and would never use it, exactly because of all that magic. But Spring itself is perfectly fine and I can control every single bit of it with explicit configurations.

For us, springboot gave about 90% of what we wanted out of the box. The 10% that we wanted customized (special authentication related things or transparent multitenant database switching with repositories etc), it let us override and do what we wanted it to do. It certainly is a lot of magic, but nothing that cannot be deduced if you are familiar with Spring, and/or look at the source.

Re: Thank You, Guido

#317

Post by neeleshs »

Alupis wrote: post #132
jrs95 wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The downside is that also means a lot of the core APIs are a huge pain in the ass to work with, especially relative to something like Python, and the “solution” to this problem ends up being something like Spring which has to use so much reflection and metaprogramming to accomplish what it does that it also relies heavily on exceptions for control flow. So without even getting into the other issues, debugging becomes…

If you're using something like Spring or Spring-Boot (highly recommended!!!) - you rarely, if ever, are going to be debugging Spring's code... any issues are going to be in your code. With Spring-Boot you can even start treating Spring and friends like a "Black Box", and stop caring about how it does what it does.

Could not agree more with Spring-boot recommendation! It's an amazing toolbox and combine it with streams and function interfaces, programming in Java is pleasant again

Re: Thank You, Guido

#318

Post by [deleted] »

Alex3917 wrote: post #133
notkaiho wrote: post #2

"“When asked, I would give people my opinion that maintainable code is more important than clever code,” he said. “If I encountered clever code that was particularly cryptic, and I had to do some maintenance on it, I would probably rewrite it. So I led by example, and also by talking to other people.”" This is very sage advice.

> This is very sage advice. I mean in real life (when you don't have Guido to do it for you), if people are writing code you can't understand then you need to tell them to fix it. And many people don't like being told they need to rewrite their code because you can't understand it, so it leads to conflict and eventually you often need to fire people. So yes, it's good advice, but by cleaning up engineering debt you'r…

[deleted]

Re: Thank You, Guido

#319

Post by Alupis »

neeleshs wrote: post #316
vbezhenar wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can use Spring without all that magic. I, personally, hate Spring Boot and would never use it, exactly because of all that magic. But Spring itself is perfectly fine and I can control every single bit of it with explicit configurations.

For us, springboot gave about 90% of what we wanted out of the box. The 10% that we wanted customized (special authentication related things or transparent multitenant database switching with repositories etc), it let us override and do what we wanted it to do. It certainly is a lot of magic, but nothing that cannot be deduced if you are familiar with Spring, and/or look at the source.

I used to be opposed to all the "magic"... but after you write a few MVC projects with Hibernate backends, etc... why keep having to do that all from scratch each time?

You end up making your own framework that has all that in it, so that you just change a few things here and there and can start getting to the business logic that much quicker.

Then you realize you're maintaining all of that code... when you'd much rather maintain the business logic bits...

Which leads to using Spring Boot and letting them maintain everything else.

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