Live data from Hacker News

The crisis in physics is not only about physics

backreaction.blogspot.com

41–50 of 179 posts

Re: The crisis in physics is not only about physics

#41
post #31
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Almost any material hard metrics you look at like life expectancy, economic growth or whatever you could consider a sign of technological advancement, even tens of billions in investment seem to produce only marginal improvements. We are not living in the golden age of science. As a knit pick, these metrics are all derivatives of science output, and not science itself. For example, detecting gravity waves does move…

Fantastic mondegreen ("knit pick", like picking at stitching with knitting needles, as opposed to "nit pick", which is picking off lice eggs to prevent future annoyance)

"Mondegreen" is a word I've needed but didn't know existed. Thanks for sharing.

All intensive purposes. Get down to brass tax. There's a lot of these that I've uttered or heard and they last a long time because they sound kind of sensible.

Re: The crisis in physics is not only about physics

#42

"In the foundations of physics, we have not seen progress since the mid 1970s when the standard model of particle physics was completed." This seems to discount the explosion of work in the foundations of theoretical physics. Most notably the many variations of String Theory. Just because the work has not yet produced experiments that can validate them do not mean they are not progress. It's some of the most exciting…

For many people that have followed fundamental physics it has become more and apparent that string theory, with its variations, is a dead end.

The problem isn’t that no ones has managed to experimentally validate the theory. The problem is that string theory has failed to even make predictions that even in theory could be experimentally tested.

Edit: since I’m getting downvoted, is there anything factually wrong with what I have written?

Re: The crisis in physics is not only about physics

#43

"In the foundations of physics, we have not seen progress since the mid 1970s when the standard model of particle physics was completed." This seems to discount the explosion of work in the foundations of theoretical physics. Most notably the many variations of String Theory. Just because the work has not yet produced experiments that can validate them do not mean they are not progress. It's some of the most exciting…

> This seems to discount the explosion of work in the foundations of theoretical physics. Most notably the many variations of String Theory.

Hossenfelder is well aware of string theory, as she says right in the article:

"All these wrong predictions should have taught physicists that just because they can write down equations for something does not mean this math is a scientifically promising hypothesis. String theory, supersymmetry, multiverses. There’s math for it, alright. Pretty math, even. But that doesn’t mean this math describes reality."

> Just because the work has not yet produced experiments that can validate them do not mean they are not progress.

But it's not just that string theory hasn't yet produced experiments that can validate it. It's that (a) direct experiments to validate it are something like twenty orders of magnitude away in terms of energy scale, so not doable now or for the foreseeable future, and (b) every prediction it's made so far that can be tested at energy scales we can probe (such as the prediction that supersymmetry would show up at the LHC) has been wrong.

Re: The crisis in physics is not only about physics

#44
Although I am only in physics by degree and not by practice, I think this is "physics as expected."

Old measurements do not change. Over bog standard Newtonian physics, special relativity provides additional decimals in the form of significant figures and mostly in particular circumstances. For plotting the trajectory of a large rock at comparably low speeds, Newton's equations work rather well on Earth, once you take air resistance into account. Even if another theory supplants special relativity for the extreme situations, old ballistic tables will still work.

Each advance will have smaller and smaller corrections to the experimental values, in narrower edge cases, even if the mathematics of the newer theory looks completely different. This in turn means that discarding an old theory in favor of a new one by experimental confirmation of what was unexpected in the old system must only come either in the more extreme values (more Telsa to a magnetic field, for example) or with greater precision and accuracy via more elaborate and finely-calibrated equipment. Both are expensive, requiring more time and more work.

I believe she is right in that we are certainly on course for some very time-consuming and expensive science. However, I do not see an easy way out of it, nor should we, I believe, expect one. Flip open a CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics; many of the basic values have been long-known. We have added a few more numbers to the right of the decimal in many cases, but that is it. Two hundred years ago, a single person with a modest budget could discover new physics and chemistry. A hundred years ago, a handful of collaborators with some backing could advance these most basic of sciences. By only fifty years back, we are looking at budgets in the millions and teams of scientists working in harness.

It may simply be out of reach to disassemble a galaxy to build a collider large enough to test some theories and at that juncture, one might well consider physics "close enough to done." A mote of dust is always going to fall on some surface no matter how often you polish and buff. At some point you have to stop fussing and enjoy your furniture.

Yes, it is handy to look for the cases where we can find a way to test our hypotheses for under a million dollars, in no more than a few years. We will run out of those, too.

This is "unsexy" to many. The ratcheting noose of entropy in a closed system, which we can only try to run away from at pedestrian sub-light speeds is, bluntly put, a drag.

Re: The crisis in physics is not only about physics

#45

> They do not think about which hypotheses are promising because their education has not taught them to do so. Such self-reflection would require knowledge of the philosophy and sociology of science, and those are subjects physicists merely make dismissive jokes about. Accusing working scientists of being insufficiently reflective on any topic, let alone themselves or the field they work in, seems without merit on it…

I have a PhD in physics. Even though I have left the field, I’ve hung around with enough of them, and occasionally tried to raise some more philosophical questions with them.

Sabine is unfortunately spot on.

Re: The crisis in physics is not only about physics

#46
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fantastic mondegreen ("knit pick", like picking at stitching with knitting needles, as opposed to "nit pick", which is picking off lice eggs to prevent future annoyance)

"Mondegreen" is a word I've needed but didn't know existed. Thanks for sharing. All intensive purposes. Get down to brass tax. There's a lot of these that I've uttered or heard and they last a long time because they sound kind of sensible.

“Knowledge is power. France is bacon” is a personal favorite.

Re: The crisis in physics is not only about physics

#47
post #23

I wonder if what the author is observing is an effect of the industrialization of science. As she pointed out, > Because the existing scientific system does not encourage learning. Physicists today can happily make career by writing papers about things no one has ever observed, and never will observe. Maybe what's really going on is that almost every scientist out there is forced to chase grants and maintain a steady…

Your suggestion about jumping on the EM drive is in direct opposition to what Sabine suggests:

"The only way to avoid being sucked into this vicious cycle is to choose carefully which hypothesis to put to the test. But physicists still operate by the “just look” idea like this was the 19th century. They do not think about which hypotheses are promising because their education has not taught them to do so. Such self-reflection would require knowledge of the philosophy and sociology of science, and those are subjects physicists merely make dismissive jokes about. They believe they are too intelligent to have to think about what they are doing."

Jumping on a crank's idea is not carefully choosing which hypothesis to test.

Re: The crisis in physics is not only about physics

#48

This was great until the bit about medicine. Medicine has made huge, tremendous progress in the past 30 years. And there are still many serendipitous discoveries happening that lead to new drugs. I mean jesus for the first time ever, a company is going to put up a drug for approval to treat alzheimers. Let's not lump medicine in with physics, please. Medicine has always been skeptical of theories without data and, wh…

Yeah, I am not sure about that. To keep up with pace and statistical rigorousness medicine would have to be disturbingly and outrageously unethical. It also deals with more complex issues.

To me it's bound to work on less reliable data.

Re: The crisis in physics is not only about physics

#49

This was great until the bit about medicine. Medicine has made huge, tremendous progress in the past 30 years. And there are still many serendipitous discoveries happening that lead to new drugs. I mean jesus for the first time ever, a company is going to put up a drug for approval to treat alzheimers. Let's not lump medicine in with physics, please. Medicine has always been skeptical of theories without data and, wh…

Let's not take just her word for the entire field of physics (even fundamental physics) either.

Re: The crisis in physics is not only about physics

#50
post #8

As usual with Sabine, this article blatantly misrepresents how science is done and how actual scientists think, and serves mainly to portray herself as the only person in the field capable of rational thought. People in the comments here are picking up on this when it takes an unfair swipe at medicine, but it really applies to the whole article. I am not going to bother doing a line-by-line rebuttal, because I've alr…

I'm new to the field. I'd appreciate some links to past rebuttals that you've done because I also want to learn about the discourse and politics surrounding the field. I think that understanding all of those things is quite important, and could benefit me greatly. Thanks.
Post reply on HN