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Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

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Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#341

Post by vkou »

braythwayt wrote: post #282
hummel wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The protests were violent riots not supported by any political party or entity, Catalan or not. As you can see violence stopped like one week ago, and everything back to normal. For example, you can see here ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkgW7Bab1J8 ) violence blocked the university, so other Catalan students cant go to classes that day. Catalan society is not related to the protest. It is like seeing an Antifa v…

None of that suggests that there is no issue. I could say almost all the same things about whether the people of Québec want to leave Canada or not, and whether the tactics of those who want to leave are legitimate or not. But I would never say there is no separation issue in Québec.

There isn't a separation issue in Quebec... At this moment. The BQ has given up on secession, and instead doubled-down on islamophobia, to great success at the polls.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#342

Post by mindB »

swebs wrote: post #166
mindB wrote: post #156

Github will not be shutdown over any action they do or do not take in Spain. The worst that can happen to Github is that they are prevented from doing business in Spain. Given how strongly Spain has come down against freedom of expression on the Catalonia issue, Github is making it very clear by taking this action that freedom of expression is not one of their values. Let me repeat, Spain has come down hard enough ag…

>Github is making it very clear by taking this action that freedom of expression is not one of their values. Github has made that very clear when they took down the parody feminist programming language C+=. There were no legal notices or government threats or anything. They simply did not like the message. https://tech.slashdot.org/story/13/12/14/1618239/github-take...

I'll admit I get a bit more worked up about companies colluding with governments to suppress speech; the potential harm is much higher. If Github had themselves taken a stance that the contents of the censored repository were unethical and independently chosen to take it down, I'd have much less of a problem with them.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#343

Post by logfromblammo »

rndgermandude wrote: post #171
cfv wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's neither impossible nor unlawful though, they just need the rest of the country to agree with them leaving. The fascist dictator who formed modern Spain made it so its constituent lands can expel a part of it but no one part of it can choose to leave. This is the root of why the procés is illegal, and why they are being charged as violent agitators. They are seen as young kids trying to leave their parent's house…

>It's neither impossible nor unlawful though, they just need the rest of the country to agree with them leaving. Why do they need the approval of people living elsewhere?

Generally, it's so that the national polity can invest in specific regional polities without fear that they'll take the money and run, or abscond with strategic assets critical to the development of other regions.

It's basically a checklist item for a negotiated diplomatic withdrawal, to avoid triggering a knee-jerk military suppression of the unlawful rebellion. If "the rest of the country" does not agree, and won't negotiate, secession is still possible, it just means winning the civil war.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#344

Post by xyzzyz »

romaaeterna wrote: post #137
cfv wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's neither impossible nor unlawful though, they just need the rest of the country to agree with them leaving. The fascist dictator who formed modern Spain made it so its constituent lands can expel a part of it but no one part of it can choose to leave. This is the root of why the procés is illegal, and why they are being charged as violent agitators. They are seen as young kids trying to leave their parent's house…

Right to exit is an important foundation of legitimate rule. Plato's Crito has Socrates make the point that, even sentenced to death, he was bound to respect the laws of Athens as he was someone who had made the voluntary choice to remain in the city all of his life until then and under those laws.

Right to exit is an important foundation of legitimate rule.

For individuals, sure, and I'm quite sure Catalonians are free to leave Spain and go somewhere else.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#345

Post by mindB »

hummel wrote: post #173
mindB wrote: post #156

Github will not be shutdown over any action they do or do not take in Spain. The worst that can happen to Github is that they are prevented from doing business in Spain. Given how strongly Spain has come down against freedom of expression on the Catalonia issue, Github is making it very clear by taking this action that freedom of expression is not one of their values. Let me repeat, Spain has come down hard enough ag…

Watching your Github profile I see you are from the US, time to get back to history classes and time to fight for the freedom of expression on your own country, which is ranked on 49 on Press Freedom Index 2019 https://rsf.org/en/ranking next to Senegal and Romania.

I cannot condone my own countries recent (say past couple hundred years) treatment of freedom of expression. It causes my blood to boil on at least a weekly basis. That said, press freedom while important is only a subset of freedom of expression.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#346

Post by snvzz »

ErneX wrote: post #310
snvzz wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The CEO is just an opinion poll, but it shows that there's a lot of people for independence, if anything. The two referendums (the older non-binding "consultation", and the newer binding), along with the results of elections, and the fact the current government is pro-independence, are the best data we've got, by mere size of sample.

There hasn't been a binding referendum because a secession referendum does not legally exists in the current constitution. If the pro-independence side calls for these referendums and we all know those are non-binding, the only turnout those will have are of those who are in favor of secession. Those results cannot be taken in any way seriously.

>the only turnout those will have are of those who are in favor of secession

There was plenty of turnover, and plenty of No votes, in the referendum famous for the use of force by the Spanish "Guardia Civil" police.

There just happened to be a lot more Yes votes. Like how people voted in another pro-independence government again in the Catalan elections organized by the Spanish government after they forcibly disolved the Catalan government, just a few weeks after this referendum.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#347

Post by xyzzyz »

droithomme wrote: post #185
cfv wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's neither impossible nor unlawful though, they just need the rest of the country to agree with them leaving. The fascist dictator who formed modern Spain made it so its constituent lands can expel a part of it but no one part of it can choose to leave. This is the root of why the procés is illegal, and why they are being charged as violent agitators. They are seen as young kids trying to leave their parent's house…

> they just need the rest of the country to agree with them leaving I wonder if the American colonies which seceded from Great Britain in 1776 received the agreement of King George or of the people of Great Britain in general. Secession without consent of the sovereign was not part of their law, so the action was clearly illegal and unethical and the colonists simply in the wrong, do you think? Also there is the matt…

Catalonia is free to try to win the war of independence, of course, just like the US did.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#348

Post by tbatchelli »

ErneX wrote: post #290
tbatchelli wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those weren't referendums. The Spanish law doesn't allow independence referendums, that's why the Spanish courts handed a 100 year sentence on the Catalan politicians that allowed one. They were consultations with no tied outcomes. Again, the Spanish law today does not allow a referendum about independence. It could if the Spanish government allowed it, but they won't, after many years of asking. A large majority a c…

You have to keep in mind that those referendums were basically pro-independence acts, not an official vote by any measure. So it's obvious the results are wins of the pro-independence side.

Absolutely. Those are not referendums, and the results are not more valid than a survey, if not worse.

I was responding to the OP's statement:

> We must remember that Catalonia has already held two legal referendums, where the result has been a refusal of the Catalan people to leave Spain or Independence.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#349

Post by vidarh »

dmaldona wrote: post #136
deltron3030 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I'm against the Catalonian independence, so everyone knows where I'm coming from The question is if a democracy can be called democratic if it's impossible/unlawful for minorities to secede. I also think that a secession wouldn't be the smartest choice, but that's a totally different matter. A functional democracy implies that the whole has to arrange itself democratically with the parts it consists of, if not it ri…

In order to have a healthy democracy we first need the rule of the law. Constitutions are made to define the foundations of those laws and protect citizen minorities against majority abuses: what if 80% of the population of a region decides to expel the other 20% because of whatever reasons? The fact that the state tries to preserve the integrity of the country is necessary to keep the rule of the law. For if it just…

In order to have a healthy democracy, we first need legitimacy. In other words, those who are part of the entity need to consider it to have authority.

Nobody should be surprised if an entity you can not leave if the majority oversteps their perceived bounds ceases to have legitimacy in the eyes of those who are forcibly prevented from leaving.

By all means seek to ensure all interests are taken into account, but you don't do that by holding people against their will.

[My favorite discussion on the topic of democratic legitimacy is Robert A Dahl's "After the Revolution? Authority in a good society" (Yale University Press) that goes through this issue in a very approachable way]

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#350

Post by shadowgovt »

CrazyStat wrote: post #321
ETHisso2017 wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So retener is like retention?

It's a verb, so retain, but yes.

In English too, you can retain something to have it, but you can technically also retain to mean "withhold," in the sense that you are keeping it secure or intact and refusing to divulge it.

It's not a very common usage in English though.

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