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Thank You, Guido

blog.dropbox.com

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Re: Thank You, Guido

#201

Post by kccqzy »

darksaints wrote: post #186
not2b wrote: post #16

Did you notice this: "He has already put into motion the conversion of the Dropbox server code from Python 2 to Python 3." Even the company that hired Guido is still heavily dependent on Python 2, and it doesn't surprise me at all; my own employer still has a lot of it in internal tools.

Don't they have source to source compilers that do the migration for you? I don't understand why the friction is so strong with python.

Yes but the source-to-source compilers do a fraction of the work needed to get a code base migrated. I've tried both the builtin 2to3 utility and many proprietary converters, including fancy ones that run type inference on Python 2 code and produce type annotations. None of them, as expected, can deal with the str/bytes split without manual intervention.

Fundamentally the issue is that the Python language is too dynamic for static analyzers to fully understand the code and perform conversions. I'm not just talking about type systems, but also monkey patching, reflections, etc.

What we really need is a tool that runs your Python 2 code, records types and other dynamic manipulations, and then produce Python 3 code. But I'm not aware of such a tool.

Re: Thank You, Guido

#202

Post by FpUser »

vintagedave wrote: post #122
3pt14159 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm starting to long for a stack that doesn't constantly change. Just set the features and that's it. Security updates only after that. It feels like a constant grind keeping up with everything. Containers, clouds, programming languages, operating systems, frontend frameworks, transfer protocols, it seems like it takes so much effort to just build something and keep it going. That Python 2 is still around doesn't rea…

Delphi still lets you build programs that used to run on Windows 3 with minimal changes, and definitely anything 32-bit. It's part of the value proposition: the language and libraries are planned for forward compatibility and stability for use ten years in the future, as well as now.

Actually there were some problems (very long procedures I think would be one example). Other then that compatibility shines.

Re: Thank You, Guido

#203

Post by azinman2 »

pvg wrote: post #152
not2b wrote: post #16

Did you notice this: "He has already put into motion the conversion of the Dropbox server code from Python 2 to Python 3." Even the company that hired Guido is still heavily dependent on Python 2, and it doesn't surprise me at all; my own employer still has a lot of it in internal tools.

What is 'even' about this, given that Dropbox was founded well before the first version of Python 3 was released? Feels like less of a 'did you notice' and more of a 'let's have an interminable python2 v python3 thread no matter the topic at hand'.

Guido has been working there for 6 years yet only now is starting the conversion?

Re: Thank You, Guido

#204

Post by yoavm »

dexen wrote: post #101
3pt14159 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm starting to long for a stack that doesn't constantly change. Just set the features and that's it. Security updates only after that. It feels like a constant grind keeping up with everything. Containers, clouds, programming languages, operating systems, frontend frameworks, transfer protocols, it seems like it takes so much effort to just build something and keep it going. That Python 2 is still around doesn't rea…

Surprisingly enough, PHP is a good example of environment that doesn't break backward compatibility much. About the only change that had a significant impact on projects I worked on was removal of the 'mysql' DB extension (replaced by 'mysqli' and 'PDO'). For an older project I created a few shim functions and it still works just fine. While frameworks come and go, the core of the language is highly backward compatib…

Can't relate with that... I'm still hosting some WordPress websites for clients from a few years ago. I'm afraid to upgrade PHP versions because many things broke in the past. True, it's not the WordPress core but the plugins that usually break, but I can't think of a single client of mine that doesn't have at least 3 plugins installed.

Re: Thank You, Guido

#205

Post by FpUser »

blauditore wrote: post #129
MisterBastahrd wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One day tech historians are gonna look back at this era and shake their heads at all the time, energy, and talent being wasted by people just trying to keep up with tech trends for the sheer purpose of remaining employable.

I don't think it's that bad. I've never heard of someone who got fired because they didn't know the latest JS framework. Also, new tech trends are not just hot air, there's also a lot of innovation happening. You just have to see through the hype and wait until the dust settles.

If we are talking client side JS I think they're just trying to solve the problems that desktop had solved ages ago. And they keep smashing heads in a process.

Re: Thank You, Guido

#206

Post by b0rsuk »

3pt14159 wrote: post #79
not2b wrote: post #16

Did you notice this: "He has already put into motion the conversion of the Dropbox server code from Python 2 to Python 3." Even the company that hired Guido is still heavily dependent on Python 2, and it doesn't surprise me at all; my own employer still has a lot of it in internal tools.

I'm starting to long for a stack that doesn't constantly change. Just set the features and that's it. Security updates only after that. It feels like a constant grind keeping up with everything. Containers, clouds, programming languages, operating systems, frontend frameworks, transfer protocols, it seems like it takes so much effort to just build something and keep it going. That Python 2 is still around doesn't rea…

Sounds like mathematics.

Re: Thank You, Guido

#207

Post by beerandt »

3pt14159 wrote: post #79
not2b wrote: post #16

Did you notice this: "He has already put into motion the conversion of the Dropbox server code from Python 2 to Python 3." Even the company that hired Guido is still heavily dependent on Python 2, and it doesn't surprise me at all; my own employer still has a lot of it in internal tools.

I'm starting to long for a stack that doesn't constantly change. Just set the features and that's it. Security updates only after that. It feels like a constant grind keeping up with everything. Containers, clouds, programming languages, operating systems, frontend frameworks, transfer protocols, it seems like it takes so much effort to just build something and keep it going. That Python 2 is still around doesn't rea…

FORTRAN?

Re: Thank You, Guido

#208

Post by wil421 »

azinman2 wrote: post #203
pvg wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is 'even' about this, given that Dropbox was founded well before the first version of Python 3 was released? Feels like less of a 'did you notice' and more of a 'let's have an interminable python2 v python3 thread no matter the topic at hand'.

Guido has been working there for 6 years yet only now is starting the conversion?

Business decisions. Dropbox needs to stay competitive especially with all the alternatives from FA(N)AG (removing Netflix). Many alternatives come bundled with other services.

Not all companies have the big tech or mid/early stage VC money to throw around. Who knows what kind of other tech debt Dropbox has accumulated.

Re: Thank You, Guido

#209

Post by hgtr »

CamouflagedKiwi wrote: post #191
alanfranz wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly: the Java environment is exceedingly good at that. Backwards incompatible changes are truly minimal, and only those that are strictly necessary are added. And since Java 8 the language is pretty nice and offers good functional idioms. Of course, major versions of libraries still change. But there's no match with the JS approach.

Yet we have multiple versions of Java at work (8 and 11) because some (pretty large) third-party components don't support the newer versions yet. Plus for things that do work there are a bunch of irritating warnings and whatnot. It's not "exceedingly good" at it, it's just alright. Go has done much better for us in this area.

Go has the whole gomodules thing, which I’m not a huge fan of. Go with vendored dependencies sounds really stable.

Re: Thank You, Guido

#210

Post by chaostheory »

alanfranz wrote: post #98
3pt14159 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm starting to long for a stack that doesn't constantly change. Just set the features and that's it. Security updates only after that. It feels like a constant grind keeping up with everything. Containers, clouds, programming languages, operating systems, frontend frameworks, transfer protocols, it seems like it takes so much effort to just build something and keep it going. That Python 2 is still around doesn't rea…

Honestly: the Java environment is exceedingly good at that. Backwards incompatible changes are truly minimal, and only those that are strictly necessary are added. And since Java 8 the language is pretty nice and offers good functional idioms. Of course, major versions of libraries still change. But there's no match with the JS approach.

How are people adapting to Oracle’s licensing changes?
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