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Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

miamiherald.com

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Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#91

Post by zentiggr »

mc32 wrote: post #50
542458 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right, I was incorrect there - I was confused because he wasn't on the medical team for the autopsy. Looks like he was there as an observer, being paid by Epstein's family - which also introduces a fairly significant conflict of interest.

Why is it a massive conflict of interest from the family side but not from the state side (their pathologists)? Presumably they both care about careers and reputation.

What does a career or reputation matter when there's billions of dollars floating around, and you can quietly disappear to a fully funded retirement (out of all the spotlights of course) fifteen minutes after you make whatever statement is required of you?

Not that I think there's any sort of attempts at influencing the story here...

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#92

Post by bryanrasmussen »

partiallypro wrote: post #13
mikece wrote: post #2

I tend to be very skeptical of claims of conspiracy and conspiracy theories in general but I've yet to hear a reasonable theory to explain how Epstein could have killed himself in a cell and unit where suicide is made a practical impossibility. A friend in law enforcement related a story about someone on suicide watch who managed to kill himself by eating/shoving massive amount of toilet paper down his throat and the…

He was taken off of suicide watch, so he had all the materials he needed to kill himself. Also...every person I've read with working knowledge of that prison has stressed the gross negligence and incompetence there.

yeah but every noted pathologist who I've read with working knowledge of the case - which is the one in the linked article - says it looks like murder.

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#93

Post by castlecrasher2 »

jowday wrote: post #37
bsamuels wrote: post #5

I'm fascinated by the idea that someone could have killed and successfully covered up a murder this high profile. How do you handle the guards? How do you keep the other inmates quiet? Can you get away with bribing a single guard or is a larger operation needed? If you bribe people, how do you get the money to them? How do you keep them quiet when the inevitable investigation happens? I don't think it's impossible, b…

It's likely Epstein was tied up with CIA. Once they enter the picture, everything's fair game. https://observer.com/2019/07/jeffrey-epstein-spy-intelligenc...

Honestly this seems the only reasonable explanation considering how long it was known he was doing what he was doing.

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#94

Post by hnuser77 »

jowday wrote: post #37
bsamuels wrote: post #5

I'm fascinated by the idea that someone could have killed and successfully covered up a murder this high profile. How do you handle the guards? How do you keep the other inmates quiet? Can you get away with bribing a single guard or is a larger operation needed? If you bribe people, how do you get the money to them? How do you keep them quiet when the inevitable investigation happens? I don't think it's impossible, b…

It's likely Epstein was tied up with CIA. Once they enter the picture, everything's fair game. https://observer.com/2019/07/jeffrey-epstein-spy-intelligenc...

Maybe not. From this article, "...it probably wasn’t American intelligence, either."

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#95

Post by zzzcpan »

dorkwood wrote: post #87
x220 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bribe the two guards with cash. Threaten to kill them and their families if they talk. It's pretty straightforward. Most people think that they are good people and would do the right thing in this situation, even though most people have no reason whatsoever to believe that they would act morally right if it became a serious sacrifice.

I’m not the parent commenter, but even this seems less straightforward than you’re making out. For example, how do you know which guards are assigned to Epstein’s cell, and how do you get in contact with them? Is it only one guard, or are there several in rotation? Where do you get this information? Once they accept your bribe, how do you get the money to them? I’m just thinking about the logistics of the situation.…

> Surely someone who can do all of this stuff would be considered skilful.

Or merely someone who guards report to.

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#96

Post by apetresc »

shadowgovt wrote: post #86
542458 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> killed himself in a cell and unit where suicide is made a practical impossibility Ken White (famous-ish lawyer and notable internet personality) puts it this way: "But your assessment of plausibility is based on your assumptions about how the system works. Those assumptions are, mostly, wrong — naive Dick-Wolf-level law-enforcement-are-competent-good-guys stuff". Prisons, particularly american prisons, are full of…

Yep. The hard conspiracy theory - that some rich agent with something to lose took determined action to subvert the prison's protections and assassinate him - doesn't hold water for me. I am, however, willing to entertain the softer conspiracy theory - that people in prison (prisoners and staff) hate pedophiles and people who enable pedophilia, and the guy was, perhaps, given more opportunity than average to "fix his…

Maybe in some more run-of-the-mill cases, sure. But even the dimmest staff member must have been well aware that this particular pedophile was on the verge of testifying against an entire network of other pedophiles.

If you hate pedophiles so much you're willing to risk your life/career just to let one of them commit suicide, surely you also hate them enough to wait just a little bit longer to prevent a bunch more of them from getting away with it.

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#97

Post by camel_Snake »

AndrewBissell wrote: post #21
ejstronge wrote: post #9

It doesn't seem that this new claim discusses anything not explicitly mentioned at the time of the suicide decision. See the NYT article on this new report for a fuller discussion, as well as quotes from many pathologists: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/30/nyregion/jeffrey-epstein-...

The fact that Baden, one of the only two MEs assigned to examine the body, believes it was a homicide is certainly news. So is the fact that the NYC ME listed cause of death as "pending" initially and then it was later amended to "suicide" for reasons unknown.

Baden was present for the examination - he didn't perform the examination himself. It's a small detail but I wouldn't put Baden's opinion and the official examiner's at the same level.

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#98

Post by JackFr »

pkilgore wrote: post #22

I hate to be boring, but extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, which so far has not been presented. My brother in law is an attorney who literally makes a career out of the deaths and injuries that result from the incredible incompetence and neglect we inflict upon the imprisoned in this country. And as he puts it "Business is Good."

We know that people are murdered in prison (though probably not as often as the media depicts.)

We know that blackmail exists.

While they might be uncommon, neither of those are extraordinary.

It is also undisputed that:

- a serial and unabashed pedophile had multiple contacts with two presidents, a member of the British royal family and a few titans of industry.

- when prosecuted for his sex crimes said pedophile came away with a sweetheart deal that apart from violating federal regulations, was _incomprehensible_ in it's leniency.

Now just because those two things are quite extraordinary it doesn't mean they are proof of anything. At the same time though, they are a justification for being a little more circumspect about dismissing conspiracies as crank theories.

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#99

Post by shadowgovt »

apetresc wrote: post #96
shadowgovt wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. The hard conspiracy theory - that some rich agent with something to lose took determined action to subvert the prison's protections and assassinate him - doesn't hold water for me. I am, however, willing to entertain the softer conspiracy theory - that people in prison (prisoners and staff) hate pedophiles and people who enable pedophilia, and the guy was, perhaps, given more opportunity than average to "fix his…

Maybe in some more run-of-the-mill cases, sure. But even the dimmest staff member must have been well aware that this particular pedophile was on the verge of testifying against an entire network of other pedophiles. If you hate pedophiles so much you're willing to risk your life/career just to let one of them commit suicide, surely you also hate them enough to wait just a little bit longer to prevent a bunch more of…

Unless you have no reason to believe the testimony will matter.

Re: Epstein's injuries look more like murder than suicide, noted pathologist says

#100

Post by hnuser77 »

camel_Snake wrote: post #90
EpicEng wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The breaking of the hyoid bone is, in fact, not uncommon in hangings. Nor is the breaking of the cartilage. Nor is hemorrhaging in the face or eyes. You're directly contradicting an expect here. Have any sources to back that up?

Not the parent but here's the first google result: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20973326 TLDR happens ~25% of the time for males.

That may be 25% of all hangings, but I imagine the rate would be lower for hangings occurred by a 6ft tall person off a 6ft tall bed post.
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