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The mindfulness conspiracy

theguardian.com

81–90 of 101 posts

Re: The mindfulness conspiracy

#81
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, in some aspects there has been, in others not. I'm pretty sure a Syrian or a Venezuelan, for example, who was living in way better conditions a decade ago, can very easily agree that this is so. The relative stability and prosperity aside (which itself is arguable, with a declining middle class and stagnant wages, but anyway), I'm not so sure why it's so hard for e.g. many Americans to see this, as if today is…

"Inequality" doesn't mean that even the poorer part of a society has slid backwards. Considering the situation of Afroamericans, I think you underappreciate the amount of lynchings, violence (not just by police) and structural discrimination that took place. All of that is at a record low, if still much too high. There is still a lot of work to be done, but undoubtedly their situation has improved, long term.

>"Inequality" doesn't mean that even the poorer part of a society has slid backwards.

Unfortunately it does, in two ways. One is objective, the other can be argued, but is my opinion nonetheless.

1) Inequality has seen the "poorer part of a society" slid backwards in many objectively measured standards of living, from infant mortality to overall life expectancy, to home ownership, retirement savings, and so on. Those are in absolute (and inflation adjusted when needed) values, worse than in the past.

2) Humans are not mere animals, and their progress, self-respect, etc are not just absolute, but also relative to the overall resources available. We don't compare ourselves to cavemen era people or to 1928 people, but to what's available today. More people having less share of their society's wealth is a slide backwards, even if each has more toys than someone in 1970s or 3000 B.C. had. In other words, "median share of society's wealth per person" is also a metric to keep track of over time.

(And the more important stuff, like homes, health care, education, are increasingly priced out of reach, even relative to 1970 or 1980, so that's a slide backwards whether seen relatively or in absolute terms).

Re: The mindfulness conspiracy

#82
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are adding the goal of turning status quo warriors into activists. Mindfulness is not designed for that and has never claimed to do that

No, more like not turning activists into content status quo followers. But it's problematic to discern the two. Perhaps a study on how many activists quit when using or not using mindfulness techniques. Though the confounder is huge, people trying this have some sort of a psychological problem most of the time...

it doesn't work like that. you should try it for yourself

Re: The mindfulness conspiracy

#83
post #44

Depression can be created by a hostile environment in individuals with no prior issues. With a background of ever-increasing pressures on the individual to perform, the author rightfully calls out self-help for being "damage control procedures" only: practices that can help individuals cope with an untenable situation for longer. The manner of the calling-out is hyperbole and full of opinions but in my opinion there…

I would agree, or at least acknowledge that there was some truth here, if the worker's revolutions that have happened actually made anyone happier or less stressed. The only thing I've seen in all my travels that made anyone any happier is strong family ties.

> the worker's revolutions that have happened

Which ones are you thinking of?

Re: The mindfulness conspiracy

#84
post #28

Mindfulness is being aware of what goes on in your mind. How can anyone argue that it's a BAD? How is staying blind to what you're actually thinking good in any way? All it does is make us a reactionary creature, which is exactly what you need to be to burn a whole society to the ground. Thanks Guardian, this is exactly what we need. More violence, more escalation, more rash decisions. Journalism 2019 - and they ask…

The article is not arguing against being aware of what goes on in your mind.

Re: The mindfulness conspiracy

#85
post #75

I enjoyed the article. I see mindfulness being a truly helpful tool, but I can also see it as being a bludgeon to numb people to the status quo. The closest thing that I can think of that is similar is physical exercise. Physical exercise is legitimately helpful for maintaining a healthy life for nearly all (if not all) human beings, but there is definitely an industry around getting people to buy things to get them…

Mindfulness walks you away from living on autopilot and having your thoughts driven by emotion. If it "numbs" you, I'm not sure what you're doing but it isn't anywhere near awareness. People seem to really be addicted to this emotionally driven autopilot existence and seem over and over to insist that if you aren't being driven by emotion you're incapable of doing good. It seems to be the next wave of the attempt to…

> if you aren't being driven by emotion you're incapable of doing good.

I'd say the article is claiming one is "less likely", not incapable.

> they're better off ignored.

So you advocate inaction? Seems like the author may have a point :)

Re: The mindfulness conspiracy

#86
post #48
post #9

The bias clearly show through in the writing. "Societal problems", "unjust society", " systemic change that might remove it". Mindfulness is somewhat oversold these days, but his understanding of it seems very simplistic "Mindfulness is nothing more than basic concentration training." Surprise surprise, he has a book to sell about it. https://guardianbookshop.com/mcmindfulness-9781912248315.htm...

Thank you for pointing out the bias and the advertising aspect of this article. I just cancelled my Guardian subscription.

As an aside and I truly believe you in your case but I really want to do a Twitter / social media bot which counts the number of times people say "I'm unsubscribing" (from e.g. GitHub, Blizzard, Netflix, political party, media outlet) and compares them to the actual number of subscribers.

I suspect that any patterns wouldn't be that visible as people can be dissatisfied for many reasons but for major events it might be interesting.

I also want to do a bot that counts on "why am I being downvoted" "not sure why you are being downvoted" comments here and on Reddit! The bot could reply based on analysis of the user, if they are newbies, if they are troll, if they do actually know why but are just registering support etc ...

Re: The mindfulness conspiracy

#87

One goal of mindfulness and meditation is to reduce the amount of noise in our heads so that we can see things clearer. This allows us to take more _effective_ actions. The author seems to have a clear bias that radical == good, and this puts me off. Radical action can be good, and it can be bad. Mindfulness can help us see which case is which.

That is also the goal of religion. Tell your worries to god in silence and peace, then wait and be patient for God to fix it.

Please don't take HN threads into religious flamewar.

"Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive."

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: The mindfulness conspiracy

#88
post #17

There we go. The authors biased and naive opinion of mindfulness is just that. His opinion. Without any awareness of itself. What happens when we have nothing to think about but thoughts? We lose ourselves in the content of thought without seeing them for what they really are. Human says "my thoughts", yet believes himself to be the content of the thoughts, the seemingly very important thoughts that start with "I" an…

> And being mindful sets a lot of things straight.

Like what?

Re: The mindfulness conspiracy

#89
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. But a premise of Buddhism is that the ethics came about as the result of meditation.

This is not the premise of Buddhism. Here is a good starting point for understanding what is: http://ftp.budaedu.org/ebooks/pdf/EN074.pdf

I didn't say it is "the" premise of Buddhism. I said it is a premise of Buddhism.

It is.

The story of Shakyamuni Buddha achieving enlightenment after 49 days of meditation under the Bodhi tree is pretty well known. There, of course, are a lot more antecedents to contemporary Buddhist thought and ethics than that one incident, but it's fair to say it's a pretty core part of the historical tradition, and precedes essentially everything that came after.

For context in this discussion, I am a practicing Zen Buddhist.

Re: The mindfulness conspiracy

#90
I directly know "mindfulness" people and some TM people. They all seem to doing roughly the same thing: avoiding thoughts, or pushing thoughts out of their focus/ignoring thoughts that arise.

My bystander observation is they're all developing memory problems. Obviously mentally replaying and analyzing memories strenghtens retention and these people avoid doing it. It's idiotic.

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