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Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

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Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#151

It was a warrant issued by a Spanish court that Github legally had to comply with. You can be angry at the court for issuing such a warrant but you can't be angry at Github for complying. They are not above the law, even if they may disagree with it.

You can certainly be angry at Github for complying. People break the law all the time in order to do what is moral. Look at Chelsea Manning who's in jail right now for just that.

This may be very selfish of me but I'd prefer if Github didn't get shut down over some political argument that I'm not a party in.

It would also involve Github taking sides in a very divise political issue that is far from black and white.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, the government can't let a "comunidad autonoma" organize a binding referendum about a region's secession of Spain, because that would put the region's sovereignty on the region's people, and that's against the Spanish constitution (art. 1.2, the sovereignty of the entire Spanish territory is of all Spanish citizens). That also infringes Spanish constitution's 2nd art., "the Constitution is fundamented a…

And yet, doesn't this violate the principle of self-determination? If the people of a region want to create a separate region, who is to tell them not to? Catalonia now needs the permission of the others to leave? It seems as though the Spanish constitution was written for the primacy of a centralized state, rather than federated government down to the individual. I suppose the idea that sovereignty is effectively gr…

The current Spanish constitution was voted with more than 90% of support in Catalonia. Should that not count as self-determination?

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#153
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's worth noting that this conflict has previously had groups who were terrorist (the bomb planting kind).

it's worth noting that spanish over-reactions may be rooted in memories/fears of ETA, which is an entirely different group from an entirely different region also seeking secession. the concern is the "suppress this at any cost" approach. the heavy sentences can be seen as provocative (13 years for holding an "illegal" election is indefensible. it's pure authoritarian slapdown, reeks of hubris, and spits in the face o…

This is just a nitpick, but ETA was not the only active terrorist group in Spain. Catalonia also had Terra Lliure (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_Lliure)

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can certainly be angry at Github for complying. People break the law all the time in order to do what is moral. Look at Chelsea Manning who's in jail right now for just that.

This may be very selfish of me but I'd prefer if Github didn't get shut down over some political argument that I'm not a party in. It would also involve Github taking sides in a very divise political issue that is far from black and white.

What mechanism could a Spanish court use to shut down an American multi-billion dollar company?

At worst, it could get GitHub blocked in Spain, or a local Microsoft office might get a stern look or two before Spain renews its Office 365 contract or whatever.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The question is if a democracy can be called democratic if it's impossible/unlawful for minorities to secede. Well, as both Americans and Spanish might say, "we had a war to settle that issue." The U.S. have been a republic (what you call a "democracy") for the entirety of their history as a nation, and yet unilateral secession is clearly forbidden.

I think OP is asking whether such countries, including the US, are indeed democratic, or just called that like Congo is called democratic, (not to the same degree obviously, but the same principle).

Can a country be called democratic if me and six friends are not allowed to draw a random border around a house and then vote to murder the residents with only our votes counting because only those inside the arbitrary border we drew are allowed to vote?

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#156
Github will not be shutdown over any action they do or do not take in Spain. The worst that can happen to Github is that they are prevented from doing business in Spain. Given how strongly Spain has come down against freedom of expression on the Catalonia issue, Github is making it very clear by taking this action that freedom of expression is not one of their values. Let me repeat, Spain has come down hard enough against freedom of expression that I do not believe it is ethical for Github to continue operating in the country.

I highly value freedom of expression, and it is especially important to me that a code-hosting and (like it or not) a social media website holds to that value as well, and fights to preserve that freedom on their platform. This will definitely affect whether I choose Github or Microsoft in the future.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#157

For a bit of context I'll leave my two cents here trying to be as objective as possible, leaving politics out of it as much as I can. Following the judge's veredict of the Catalan politicians who coordinated the "proces", or series of political movements to attempt to secede Catalonia from Spain; demonstrations have arisen within Catalonia protesting said judgement - the politicians were essentially deemed as conspir…

> the Github repo for takedowns has plenty - although they seem to usually be coming from China/Russia.

The other takedowns are 100% from China and Russia. Spain is joining two of the most censor-heavy (and undemocratic) countries in the world by issuing this takedown.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#158

It was a warrant issued by a Spanish court that Github legally had to comply with. You can be angry at the court for issuing such a warrant but you can't be angry at Github for complying. They are not above the law, even if they may disagree with it.

You can certainly be angry at Github for complying. People break the law all the time in order to do what is moral. Look at Chelsea Manning who's in jail right now for just that.

[deleted]

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This may be very selfish of me but I'd prefer if Github didn't get shut down over some political argument that I'm not a party in. It would also involve Github taking sides in a very divise political issue that is far from black and white.

What mechanism could a Spanish court use to shut down an American multi-billion dollar company? At worst, it could get GitHub blocked in Spain, or a local Microsoft office might get a stern look or two before Spain renews its Office 365 contract or whatever.

GitHub being shut down in Spain for ignoring a court order is more harmful than one repo being blocked by a court order, imo.

There seems to be this belief in the atmosphere that companies of all sizes should blithely ignore content takedowns when the alternative is large fines or exclusion from a country. This is not a realistic demand and you will be disappointed every time if you maintain it.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#160
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I appreciate your compliment about my prose, it is no less factual for being "poetic". The Inquisition was established as a genocidal institution against the Jewish and Muslim populace of Iberia, many of whom fled, and was later extended to serve the mission of obliterating the native religions and cultures of the New World; the price of this dominion, for Spain and later Italy, was the intellectual degradation…

Yo do write very well! Is not an empty compliment. About your comments, I can point to some excerpts in the Inquisition wikipedia article: > The Inquisition was established as a genocidal institution against the Jewish and Muslim populace of Iberia, "The Inquisition was originally intended primarily to identify heretics among those who converted from Judaism and Islam to Catholicism" There was no genocidal intention,…

Indeed, the witch-panic exists everywhere and at every time, though sometimes it is weaker and sometimes stronger, and the words used vary. Today in Nigeria and in Evangelical Christian churches there is still persecution of "witches" and "cultists", while in mainstream America instead the word used is "hackers". But in England the witch-panic did not dissuade Newton from publishing his works on natural philosophy, as it had Descartes during his lifetime; and in Leipzig and Hanover the witch-panic did not dissuade Leibniz. Spinoza, whose Jewish family had fled the Inquisition, published many of the fundamental works of rationalism; had his family remained in Spain, only with great luck would he have escaped the auto-da-fé, and today we could not debate his ideas.

How many potential Spinozas did we lose to the Inquisition because they had the misfortune of being born in Spain instead of in the Low Countries?

England and Holland were certainly guilty of atrocities, at home and in their colonies abroad, but the indigenous peoples of many of their colonies retained their cultures. The Great Law of Peace of the Haudenosaunee survives today, and possibly it inspired the revival of democracy in Europe. Hinduism, Islam, Jainism, and Buddhism survive in India today, as does knowledge of Vedic, Pali, and Sanskrit, despite centuries of English enslavement and exploitation. Contrast this with the fate of the cultural legacies of the Inka, the Maya, the Caribs, and the Quilmes.

Genocide does not require extermination. Cultural obliteration and mass expulsion — the explicit intent of the Inquisition, and to a very great extent achieved throughout Iberia and the Spanish colonies in America — are equally genocidal.

So, I say, do not accept censorship. It is a poisonous remedy, and it kills what is most precious in human culture before it begins to cure the illness for which it was prescribed.

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