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Gitlab cancels plan on tracking user behavior on GitLab.com

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Re: Gitlab cancels plan on tracking user behavior on GitLab.com

#91

Post by Omin »

tssva wrote: post #66
nessunodoro wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it will bring them under more scrutiny and rightfully so. But this sounds like a misunderstanding, both of the GDPR and user sentiment, enforced without discussion from the top. They responded quickly, humbly, and transparently in reversing the decision. I'm not sure about long-term erosion of trust, although this may harm subscription levels or contract negotiation in the medium term

An employee comment in the relevant merge request indicates that they are already knowing non-compliant with the GDPR. While I applaud their openness I wonder if this will comeback to bite them.

Do you have a link (or screenshot) of that comment?

Re: Gitlab cancels plan on tracking user behavior on GitLab.com

#92

Post by EpicEng »

tyre wrote: post #58

The reaction to this whole saga has been insane. Chill out people. They fucked up, users gave feedback, they listened. This isn't some corporate conspiracy, some grand ethical dilemma with an evil company on one side and some white knight hackers on the other. Let's imagine for a second that they are people trying to do the right thing, with years of history doing the best they can. They wanted to measure usage to ma…

Their CFO showed that he has little regard for the privacy of their users. I highly doubt that has changed. Many devs and compliance folk were on the right side of this in the MR and feature threads, but they were overruled.

I highly doubt the CFO has changed his viewpoint, and he's still in power over there. They only backtracked after the "insane" reaction. They anticipated some amount of pushback, but obviously hoped it would be smaller and they could move forward.

Re: Gitlab cancels plan on tracking user behavior on GitLab.com

#93

Post by kick »

amyjess wrote: post #25
liability wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would it mean for me to 'not allow' other members of a free society to speak their mind? Your right to criticize it and their right to say it are one and the same. Criticizing it and not permitting it are not the same thing.

Loud condemnation from the wider community. Contact their employers. Ban them from contributing to projects. When GamerGate became a thing, every major publication and several major figures in the gaming community all loudly spoke out against the harassment, and many prominent Gamergaters permanently gained reputations as harassers. Not only do we need this kind of condemnation from leaders within the open-source com…

Gitlab isn't in the "open-source community" any more than Oracle is. In fact, Oracle probably contributes more to "Open Source" as a movement and in code than Gitlab. Both are closed-source companies that release part of their works as open.

I can't see tears falling for either of those companies' employees as far as the broader community goes.

Re: Gitlab cancels plan on tracking user behavior on GitLab.com

#94

Post by EpicEng »

acrispino wrote: post #85
tyre wrote: post #58

The reaction to this whole saga has been insane. Chill out people. They fucked up, users gave feedback, they listened. This isn't some corporate conspiracy, some grand ethical dilemma with an evil company on one side and some white knight hackers on the other. Let's imagine for a second that they are people trying to do the right thing, with years of history doing the best they can. They wanted to measure usage to ma…

How do we know that they would have changed their plans without the outrage?

They wouldn't have. many devs were against it internally, but they went forward anyway with the opt-out scheme. Why would they go through all that, announce the feature, and then just decide to cancel it?

Re: Gitlab cancels plan on tracking user behavior on GitLab.com

#95

Post by itake »

epoch_100 wrote: post #56
igreulich wrote: post #39

I don't see where it is canceled. The closest thing I see to canceled, is postponed. From the update: 'We will not activate user level product usage tracking on GitLab.com or GitLab self-managed before we address the feedback and re-evaluate our plan.' That leaves a lot of wiggle room.

"Further, GitLab will commit to not implementing telemetry in our products that sends usage data to a third-party product analytics service." That seems like a pretty solid indication that the plans are cancelled.

That sounds like they are going to roll out a first-party service, which is better, but not great for the self-hosted deployments.

Re: Gitlab cancels plan on tracking user behavior on GitLab.com

#96

Post by Accacin »

zapita wrote: post #9
tyteen4a03 wrote: post #2

This comment, from the CFO, is particularly nasty: https://gitlab.com/gitlab-org/gitlab/merge_requests/14182#no...

You may or may not agree with that comment, but it is not nasty. What is nasty, on the other hand, is the vitriolic reaction to it. So far I count 16 "middle finger" emojis, including one with the subtitle "incompentent or malicious CFO". In what world does a disagreement over the right level of telemetry justify this kind of behavior? It's mind-boggling to me how entitled and aggressive the open-source culture is al…

> In what world does a disagreement over the right level of telemetry justify this kind of behavior?

In a world where companies think little of collecting and selling our personal data to make a profit? In a world where companies feel the need to track every part of my life with or without my permission. This is something I can't escape, as every time I interact with someone that does use one of these platforms than they are able to collect data on me.

We both know that there are companies out there that are trying their best to not exploit their users, and sadly these companies are often held to much higher standards. When a company that we trust, and trust enough to recommend to others who value their privacy, it does hurt when a company goes in the opposite direction with your privacy even when they have noble intentions at heart.

It's also completely telling when their engineers are standing up for their users and others at the company are trying to find any excuse to collect certain information for reasons.

Now, I'm never for personal attacks on someone no matter what, but I find it hard to call out people for using a widely used and available emoji. I do agree it's very much on the line and others might take the other opinion in this case.

Re: Gitlab cancels plan on tracking user behavior on GitLab.com

#97

Post by prophesi »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #77
tyre wrote: post #58

The reaction to this whole saga has been insane. Chill out people. They fucked up, users gave feedback, they listened. This isn't some corporate conspiracy, some grand ethical dilemma with an evil company on one side and some white knight hackers on the other. Let's imagine for a second that they are people trying to do the right thing, with years of history doing the best they can. They wanted to measure usage to ma…

> The reaction to this whole saga has been insane. Chill out people. I very much disagree. I think the outcry was warranted, and right now I see GitLab doing the right thing (and, obviously, the outcry was a huge reason for that). Changing plans in the harsh light of public condemnation isn't easy, and for that I very much commend GitLab. As someone who was very much against the previously announced change, though (…

Yeah, if the outcry continued even after their rollback & apology, _then_ it would be unwarranted. But everyone's happy now (well, arguably GitLab may not be, but they should surely be able to work out a solution with the community on how to collect telemetrics in a privacy-conscious way).

I'm also glad the feedback was so strong, as the ad-tech industry has spent the past 15 years numbing the general populace to unwarranted (and often unnecessary) telemetrics.

It's understandable that GitLab had no ill-intentions. But how can one know whether third-parties share such sentiments?

Re: Gitlab cancels plan on tracking user behavior on GitLab.com

#98

Post by [deleted] »

z92 wrote: post #87
tjoff wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was done. There even was those small banners that said something in the way of "if you have gmail I won't mail you" etc. Thing is, the broader public don't care. The difference between gitlab and gmail is primarily that developers care more about this stuff and value their code more than most people care about their email. They are also much more informed in the matter, most using gmail haven't got a clue.

There's a difference between gitlab and gmail. People pay for gitlab while gmail is free. Google can easily declare "either you take it for what it is, or leave." Gitlab can't.

[deleted]

Re: Gitlab cancels plan on tracking user behavior on GitLab.com

#100

Post by Nasrudith »

stingraycharles wrote: post #29
zapita wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And we collectively allow this behavior. Do we not? For example, I don't see anyone stepping up in that github thread and saying that insults and middle finger emojis are not OK. That's because that behavior is normalized. Participants in the thread either a) are OK with it; b) have resigned themselves to it; c) are refraining from speaking up for fear of being attacked too. That is what I mean by "allowed to happen"…

> And we collectively allow this behavior. Do we not? We don't just allow it, it appears that a vocal part even encourages it. It's toxic and unprofessional behavior, but organizations have no choice but to listen (as evidenced by Gitlab's response).

Assuming Free Software was meant to be professional in the first place was a mistake. It may have gained a professional following from sheer utility but it isn't fundamentally professional - there is an expectation for professionals to obey or outright refuse if it crosses some line and be calm either way. Not so for a community.
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