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Leonard Kleinrock on what went wrong with the internet

latimes.com

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Re: Leonard Kleinrock on what went wrong with the internet

#271

Post by thekyle »

situational87 wrote: post #11
rinchik wrote: post #8

It feels like author is depressed. It's a bit sad to read. He manages to pull so much negativity out of the things that are generally have a net-positive impact, things that drive the progress, that are progress. Disappointing article. I don't need this negativity in my life.

Progress for a select few, for everyone else things are going backwards. Life expectancy and quality of life is doing nothing but going down year after year in the United States. If you're one of the few privileged elites who benefited from the internet, congrats! You're a very small minority.

Do you consider yourself a privileged elite since you're benefiting from the internet right now by being able to post this comment?

Re: Leonard Kleinrock on what went wrong with the internet

#272

Post by UncleOxidant »

UI_at_80x24 wrote: post #182
wadkar wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Small nitpick : Hindi not Hindu. The former is language which one can learn. The latter is, depending on how you ask, is a (group of) religion(s)/way of life. On the other hand, let’s compare internet to nuclear fission. Clearly lot benefits can be drawn from the technology (assuming safety practices etc) but in our current world order it is primarily used as a deterrent. So I don’t think OP is complaining unnecessar…

I have been a science and technology enthusiast all of my life. I started running my own BBS over 30 years ago on a Commodore64. To say that I am passionate would be an understatement. Alas, lately I am becoming a Luddite. Feature creep is the enemy. I don't want or need an 'info-tainment' screen in my vehicle. I refuse to join the Apple or Google walled gardens. The warnings from Science Fiction have been ignored, a…

I too have been in tech for well over 30 years. And I too have lost my enthusiasm. Why keep aiding and abetting corporations and creeping fascism? Working in tech now feels like I'm doing that.

Re: Leonard Kleinrock on what went wrong with the internet

#273

Post by UncleOxidant »

hello_moto wrote: post #250
wonton52 wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think he is afraid of the directionthe internet is taking. All the most important benefits we have gained from the internet will be undone if every nation and every isp censors and filters too much content. China is becoming a model for the rest of the world, and we are in danger of losing it all, or even worse; being manipulated into thinking we did not.

It's tough, the internet is so open that there are people out there that are having trouble separating hoaxes/fake news with the real news. The spread of these fake news are even way faster than the "old media". You need to be a little bit tech literate in order to navigate the internet.

The epistemological crisis is really the worst thing the internet has brought us. When you have large segments of the population who believe in a completely different "truth" the future doesn't look bright at all.

Re: Leonard Kleinrock on what went wrong with the internet

#274

Post by marknadal »

The internet went wrong when Big Corp stepped in and Bribed the Government with the DMCA,

Killing off the community powered & hosted internet (Napster, BitTorrent).

Then further, mobile (which is great) made the Server/Client relationship polarizing & prone to spying on your location.

To fix this, we need lite P2P protocols that can run embedded or directly on any webpage inside the browser.

Then maybe, we can finally dig ourselves out of this grave.

That's what we're building, and we already have 8M monthly active users running this network! Come join the fun!

Re: Leonard Kleinrock on what went wrong with the internet

#275

Post by Swizec »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #109
Swizec wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it weren’t for the internet I’d be back home making an average $20,000/year. Instead I’m in SF on an SF salary. Hell, without the internet I wouldn’t even have known it’s possible to get here. Both physically and in mindset. qed

What are the costs of living back home for you? For instance, $20k/year is a very decent upper-middle class salary in Poland.

In Slovenia we have a joke:

A German and a Slovenian talk about life and work. The German says, "You know, life's pretty good. I make 5k a month, send my kids to school, put 2k in my mortgage, spend 1k on groceries, and there's plenty left over"

And the Slovenian says "Wow that's cool. What happens with the other 2k?"

"Oh we don't ask that in Germany. It's impolite"

So the SLovenian goes "Ah that's nice. We got it good in Slovenia too. I make 2k a month, send my kids to school, put 1.5k in my mortgage, 1k for groceries, and still got enough for a 500 payment on my Audi"

"Wait ... where's the extra 1k coming from?"

"We don't ask that in Slovenia. It's impolite"

Re: Leonard Kleinrock on what went wrong with the internet

#276

Post by UncleOxidant »

classic959 wrote: post #256
vannevar wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, I think there was a point, when we could still benefit from the pre-existing social trust network, that it was a net positive. Now that the pre-internet trust network has deteriorated, and with no trust mechanism built into the internet, it is rapidly devolving toward a net negative for social stability.

I think relying on the internet to have a trust mechanism built in is a bit like relying on our road-builders to ensure our vehicles are safe. While the average internet user will just trust the sites and apps they use, there's nothing stopping those who are able from designing/building/using/sharing technology which they can reasonably trust. The building blocks are there (crypto / networking libraries etc.). When o…

> a bit like relying on our road-builders to ensure our vehicles are safe

And yet there are lots of ways road-builders can design roads so that they're safer.

Re: Leonard Kleinrock on what went wrong with the internet

#277

Post by blacksmith_tb »

oblio wrote: post #214
reyqn wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He mentioned car, which is an awful comparison. Cars should never have been invented and they are the worst thing that happened to humanity. Just imagine how much money has been wasted into cars, and roads, when any other mean of transportation would have been more efficient.

Just imagine how much personal freedom cars have brought, especially to disenfranchised groups. There's two sides to every coin and some sides have a lot deeper grooves than what can be seen at first glance.

Disenfranchised groups who nevertheless could afford to buy and maintain cars? I wouldn't say cars have no positive aspects, but they have been heavily marketed on the idea that they give you freedom (few car ads will show a traffic jam, it's always a gloriously open road...), but their cost, in terms of pollution, urban sprawl, and injuries is quite high.

Re: Leonard Kleinrock on what went wrong with the internet

#278

Post by manthedudeguy »

malvosenior wrote: post #236
pwthornton wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Internet is not as bad as cars. That's harsh! Cars kill more than 1 million people a year, and are actively cooking our planet. On balance, cars -- at least our ability to use them -- has been a huge negative. The Internet is a lot more balanced, but both show how a lack of foresight and system design can lead to a lot of negative consequences. We could drastically cut down on the number of road deaths if we took…

> On balance, cars -- at least our ability to use them -- has been a huge negative. Honestly there's no way this is true. How many people would die if they couldn't use an ambulance? How many people are surviving on goods shipped to them via trucks? Of course things can be improved, but there's no way the automobile was a net negative on humanity.

"There's no way". What a compelling argument.

There's "no way" that 60 million people would have died in the 20th century if there was no such thing as an ambulance. I'm positive we would have invented a workable replacement.

Re: Leonard Kleinrock on what went wrong with the internet

#279

Post by UncleOxidant »

hello_moto wrote: post #246
pwthornton wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Internet is not as bad as cars. That's harsh! Cars kill more than 1 million people a year, and are actively cooking our planet. On balance, cars -- at least our ability to use them -- has been a huge negative. The Internet is a lot more balanced, but both show how a lack of foresight and system design can lead to a lot of negative consequences. We could drastically cut down on the number of road deaths if we took…

The Internet effect cannot be measured. Those hoaxes, those political ideas, those agendas, arab springs. You can't measure the fallout of that.

Arab springs that mostly went nowhere - or worse. There was a lot of hope for the middle east a mere 7 or 8 years ago. And now? It worked out for Tunisia, but it didn't turn out well for most other countries in the region.

Re: Leonard Kleinrock on what went wrong with the internet

#280

Post by reyqn »

oblio wrote: post #214
reyqn wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He mentioned car, which is an awful comparison. Cars should never have been invented and they are the worst thing that happened to humanity. Just imagine how much money has been wasted into cars, and roads, when any other mean of transportation would have been more efficient.

Just imagine how much personal freedom cars have brought, especially to disenfranchised groups. There's two sides to every coin and some sides have a lot deeper grooves than what can be seen at first glance.

I wouldn't know, I don't own a car because I don't need one. If it's possible to live without a car in a society where cars are everywhere, it's highly probable that if cars were never a thing, the infrastructure would allow you to have the same amount of personal freedom, without the downsides of cars.
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