Leonard Kleinrock on what went wrong with the internet • Hacker News Board

Re: Leonard Kleinrock on what went wrong with the internet

#261

Post by kohanz » Tue, Oct 29, 2019, 4:31 PM UTC

SlowRobotAhead wrote: post #258

lucideer wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're comparing different things here. 1. Comparing the chances of a homeless person in the modern world with a smartphone, to a homeless person in the modern world without a smartphone. 2. Comparing the chances of a homeless person in the modern world with a smartphone, to a homeless person in a hypothetical internetless world (where noone can have a smartphone). The org you volunteered with dealt with comp…

>>>> Well, a homeless person with a smartphone has a hell of a lot better chance of getting a job than they did pre-smartphone, right? >>>Not that I know the answer, but I would have to see a source on this. Why would a device that may increase access to job postings, but a non-homeless job candidate is much more likely to have than a homeless person, increase the chances of said homeless person in getting a job? I'm…

I think both you and @lucideer are right at a certain level. I did mean in the absence of cellphones altogether, since I'm referring to the fact that the non-homeless population almost all have cell-phones now, so that's really just "table-stakes" in the job hunt market.

That said, your experience provides an important data point too. I would be curious to know whether it's the phone access or the "among other things" that you refer to, which I assume means other kinds of aid, training, and support, that provides most of the value in them finding a job.

Re: Leonard Kleinrock on what went wrong with the internet

#262

Post by LinuxBender » Tue, Oct 29, 2019, 4:35 PM UTC

adim86 wrote: post #103

I find this post quite disappointing. I don't mean to come off harsh but it is quite naive and utopian and I cannot take the call to arms seriously. Saying the internet went wrong is like saying the invention of cars went wrong cause we still have car accidents. For every powerful force in the world, it will be a source of good and bad things. The internet has changed the world, increased communication, allowed peopl…

It is just one persons take. I would take it with a grain of salt. Arpa wanted a mobile network that would be operational in all countries prior to invasion. At it's inception, the internet was everything SRI ever meant it to be. Everything the internet has become is just a side effect of what was created. It follows the principal of "a person will do what a person can do".

It is the same as the DoD making interstate highways to allow troops to move across the country quickly. Everything else that sprung up along those routes was just a byproduct of the interstate highways. The good, the bad and everything in between.

Re: Leonard Kleinrock on what went wrong with the internet

#263

Post by joshklein » Tue, Oct 29, 2019, 4:37 PM UTC

malvosenior wrote: post #236

pwthornton wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Internet is not as bad as cars. That's harsh! Cars kill more than 1 million people a year, and are actively cooking our planet. On balance, cars -- at least our ability to use them -- has been a huge negative. The Internet is a lot more balanced, but both show how a lack of foresight and system design can lead to a lot of negative consequences. We could drastically cut down on the number of road deaths if we took…

> On balance, cars -- at least our ability to use them -- has been a huge negative. Honestly there's no way this is true. How many people would die if they couldn't use an ambulance? How many people are surviving on goods shipped to them via trucks? Of course things can be improved, but there's no way the automobile was a net negative on humanity.

What if the larger story of the industrialization enabled by that trucking warms the planet to the point that humanity goes extinct? Something to at least consider; unintended consequences are still consequences.

Re: Leonard Kleinrock on what went wrong with the internet

#264

Post by stale2002 » Tue, Oct 29, 2019, 4:39 PM UTC

wonton52 wrote: post #209

adim86 wrote: post #103

I find this post quite disappointing. I don't mean to come off harsh but it is quite naive and utopian and I cannot take the call to arms seriously. Saying the internet went wrong is like saying the invention of cars went wrong cause we still have car accidents. For every powerful force in the world, it will be a source of good and bad things. The internet has changed the world, increased communication, allowed peopl…

I think he is afraid of the directionthe internet is taking. All the most important benefits we have gained from the internet will be undone if every nation and every isp censors and filters too much content. China is becoming a model for the rest of the world, and we are in danger of losing it all, or even worse; being manipulated into thinking we did not.

It is a bit of the opposite. This guy is closer to arguing in favor of censorship, as opposed to against it.

He thinks freedom is too dangerous, because I'd all the bad things that people do with their freedom.

Re: Leonard Kleinrock on what went wrong with the internet

#265

Post by UncleOxidant » Tue, Oct 29, 2019, 4:40 PM UTC

adim86 wrote: post #103

I find this post quite disappointing. I don't mean to come off harsh but it is quite naive and utopian and I cannot take the call to arms seriously. Saying the internet went wrong is like saying the invention of cars went wrong cause we still have car accidents. For every powerful force in the world, it will be a source of good and bad things. The internet has changed the world, increased communication, allowed peopl…

And yet, can you blame him for the negative tone? I'm sure he and his collaborators back then had much higher hopes. And indeed, until the mid-late 90s it seemed like we were getting that open internet. The internet has fostered an epistemological crisis that has recently led to the rise of tyrants in the US and elsewhere. I'd be disappointed too.

Re: Leonard Kleinrock on what went wrong with the internet

#266

Post by dkonofalski » Tue, Oct 29, 2019, 4:42 PM UTC

adim86 wrote: post #103

I find this post quite disappointing. I don't mean to come off harsh but it is quite naive and utopian and I cannot take the call to arms seriously. Saying the internet went wrong is like saying the invention of cars went wrong cause we still have car accidents. For every powerful force in the world, it will be a source of good and bad things. The internet has changed the world, increased communication, allowed peopl…

>Saying the internet went wrong is like saying the invention of cars went wrong cause we still have car accidents

I don't think that's a fair or apt analogy at all since, in most places around the world, there's still several barriers to entry for using a car - you have to be licensed, you have to be financially able, and you have to live somewhere where it's a benefit to have access to one.

I think the central complaint is not that the internet has been democratized but, conversely, that, much like the United States and several other nations, it's become commercialized rather than democratized which is exactly the opposite of what was the hope for the internet.

I think a more apt summary of the article is that, at the beginning, there was a barrier of entry to the internet that meant that the content was mostly educational, technical, informed, and a bit altruistic. The goal was to propagate knowledge. Now, literally anyone can put their thoughts online, no matter how banal, without any technical skill, education, or barriers and commercial entities have far more capability than the average person to control the flow of information. DMCA requests on YouTube can be abused by huge corporations to protect their profits but individual users have no such ability. This leads to a platform that, unlike its initial intent, is full of low-quality, low-effort information with the exception of content that is meant for sale and consumption.

Unchecked capitalism may have ruined the internet but, hopefully, not past the point of return.

Re: Leonard Kleinrock on what went wrong with the internet

#267

Post by BrS96bVxXBLzf5B » Tue, Oct 29, 2019, 4:43 PM UTC

efdee wrote: post #45

101008 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this is a common topic between my girlfriend and me. Internet as we know it (we grew up in the 2000s with MSN, forums, etc) doesnt exist anymore. First (at least for us, for other people there would be another "first") were the basic webpages done in Frontpage or Dreamweaver (if you had enough RAM), uploaded to free webservers like Tripod, Lycos, Geocities, copying and pasting scripts found out there to remove p…

People still run blogs. People still run their own forums. Nothing is "lost", there is just a whole lot of new things that apparently don't interest you as much. Personally, I can't really say that I miss any of the sites designed like they were in the 90s, with their ever-rotating GIFs, Flash-based intro pages, "Designed for Netscape" badges. And does an influencer need to have his/her own website? Not more than an…

I've been thinking about this even more recently, specifically in the context of online portals for Flash content (games, movies, web comics etc). My conclusion is that there has been a loss, and it's largely related to reason for creation. Everything is now so product and marketing focused that creation for creation's sake makes the end result different.

E.g. if you were to search "pug lovers" two decades ago, you might find blogs posts about pugs, people's personal sites filled with images and stories of their own pugs, a small community pug-loving, pug-adopting as its own forum.

Now the first page of Google for "pug lovers" shows: a Facebook page, an Amazon page, a Pinterest page, two Etsy pages, two bespoke (catering towards dogs) storefronts, and one cute site (http://pugdogclub.org.uk/gallery/pug-lovers/).

There's no objective better or worse - people want the things all the new top results provide - but I know which era of results I prefer.

Re: Leonard Kleinrock on what went wrong with the internet

#268

Post by UncleOxidant » Tue, Oct 29, 2019, 4:44 PM UTC

blauditore wrote: post #242

pwthornton wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Internet is not as bad as cars. That's harsh! Cars kill more than 1 million people a year, and are actively cooking our planet. On balance, cars -- at least our ability to use them -- has been a huge negative. The Internet is a lot more balanced, but both show how a lack of foresight and system design can lead to a lot of negative consequences. We could drastically cut down on the number of road deaths if we took…

> On balance, cars [...] has been a huge negative. That's a ridiculous hyperbole. Cars have had a huge impact on mobility and availability of goods. It's easy to just see the downsides since all those benefits can be taken for granted nowadays, especially when living in a city where cars are less important for personal use.

At the turn of the last century most people rode bikes - a healthier activity than riding in cars. Around the same time, most cities developed extensive electric trolley systems which were largely destroyed after the automobile took over. People were mobile prior to the automobile. Cities were developed by necessity to be human-scale in the pre-automobile era. After the automobile they were developed (in the US especially) for the automobile which meant that it was very difficult to get around without a car.

Re: Leonard Kleinrock on what went wrong with the internet

#269

Post by y4mi » Tue, Oct 29, 2019, 4:48 PM UTC

spunker540 wrote: post #255

y4mi wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it does not. everyone is just following the most popular producers and the rest are basically irrelevant. Just look at the follower counts and how it drops off on any of the popular sites such as YouTube, twitch, patreon etc We got more consumers than ever, but they're all following the same people, centralizing it even more

Direct-to-consumer businesses have taken off due to the internet. It’s never been easier to start a sock company or glasses company etc. Historically you had to get in to the big box retailers to sell anything non-local but the internet has flipped that on its head. Even big platforms like eBay and Shopify (and even Amazon) are offering small businesses and individuals way more opportunities to sell than they would h…

And yet all your local retailers are closing down while Amazon gets bigger every year. It applies basically everywhere. while you're correct that its easy to get started on Amazon, it's just as easy to get marginalized there. There a tons of reports from sellers which got ruined by Amazon undercutting them after they've pioneered the market for example.

The internet enables centralization like never before as everyone all over the world uses the same services just like they're following the same people for entertainment.

Re: Leonard Kleinrock on what went wrong with the internet

#270

Post by dkonofalski » Tue, Oct 29, 2019, 4:48 PM UTC

UI_at_80x24 wrote: post #182

wadkar wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Small nitpick : Hindi not Hindu. The former is language which one can learn. The latter is, depending on how you ask, is a (group of) religion(s)/way of life. On the other hand, let’s compare internet to nuclear fission. Clearly lot benefits can be drawn from the technology (assuming safety practices etc) but in our current world order it is primarily used as a deterrent. So I don’t think OP is complaining unnecessar…

I have been a science and technology enthusiast all of my life. I started running my own BBS over 30 years ago on a Commodore64. To say that I am passionate would be an understatement. Alas, lately I am becoming a Luddite. Feature creep is the enemy. I don't want or need an 'info-tainment' screen in my vehicle. I refuse to join the Apple or Google walled gardens. The warnings from Science Fiction have been ignored, a…

>The internet has been weaponized.

Ugh... I can't believe that I'm saying this but... I agree with you, wholeheartedly.

I am about as nerdy as you can get and a huge tech enthusiast and I'm just starting to hate the internet outside of a few sites that I visit to stay "in the know". I feel like every day I'm learning less and less valuable information and more and more pop culture, meme-ified information just because it makes money. It feels like the entire scope of the internet shifted away from individuals creating cool things to huge companies advertising for whatever their latest money-maker is. Some of it is still enjoyable (e.g., Hot Ones, musicians, programmers) but it's all just slowly getting swallowed up.