Driverless cars are stuck in a jam • Hacker News Board

Re: Driverless cars are stuck in a jam

#271

Post by i_am_proteus » Tue, Oct 29, 2019, 2:42 PM UTC

bane wrote: post #259

evo_9 wrote: post #248

I don't understand why there is so much focus on automobiles instead of just about everything else. In every other instance - airplanes, boats, long-haul trucking - the problem in significantly less complex to solve. The only tangible reason I see for such disproportionate focus is some sense of false futurism; aka, driver-less cars have become the 'flying cars' of our times.

Large aircraft are basically self-driving these days. Pilots can choose to do almost nothing at all from takoff to landing. However, the failure modes are all mostly catastrophic so pilots remain under the assumption that they can slightly increase the survivability rate when the automation fails. Modern drone systems are also have elements of this kind of automation and can fly complex flight paths and station keep…

One advantage of ocean-going ships for automation is that they can (and do) embark pilots for operation waters.

On the flipside, the machinery isn't designed to operate for weeks on end without any engineering crew.

Re: Driverless cars are stuck in a jam

#272

Post by Steltek » Tue, Oct 29, 2019, 2:43 PM UTC

ryan93 wrote: post #267

bpyne wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And why is that?

Dont pretend like its normal to go through the hassle and expense of car rental just to do a routine activity

Are you thinking of full on rental like Enterprise or car sharing like Zipcar? Zipcar is pretty dang easy and it's what car-free people think when you absolutely need a car for a trip.

Re: Driverless cars are stuck in a jam

#273

Post by hodgesrm » Tue, Oct 29, 2019, 2:43 PM UTC

evo_9 wrote: post #248

I don't understand why there is so much focus on automobiles instead of just about everything else. In every other instance - airplanes, boats, long-haul trucking - the problem in significantly less complex to solve. The only tangible reason I see for such disproportionate focus is some sense of false futurism; aka, driver-less cars have become the 'flying cars' of our times.

Another drawback is that it's taking focus away from mass transit, at least in the US. Decent mass transit ameliorates such a wide range of issues in cities it's hard to understand why we don't put more effort into making it work.

Re: Driverless cars are stuck in a jam

#274

Post by boxy310 » Tue, Oct 29, 2019, 2:46 PM UTC

bane wrote: post #259

evo_9 wrote: post #248

I don't understand why there is so much focus on automobiles instead of just about everything else. In every other instance - airplanes, boats, long-haul trucking - the problem in significantly less complex to solve. The only tangible reason I see for such disproportionate focus is some sense of false futurism; aka, driver-less cars have become the 'flying cars' of our times.

Large aircraft are basically self-driving these days. Pilots can choose to do almost nothing at all from takoff to landing. However, the failure modes are all mostly catastrophic so pilots remain under the assumption that they can slightly increase the survivability rate when the automation fails. Modern drone systems are also have elements of this kind of automation and can fly complex flight paths and station keep…

Long-haul trucking would be a great use-case. Even if you need humans for local pilot guidance, you can queue them up to a "cell phone lot" and courier the last-mile drivers in between shifts of going back & forth. It would also mean drivers would be based more locally to points of loading, rather than having to be constantly on the road away from home.

Re: Driverless cars are stuck in a jam

#275

Post by ghaff » Tue, Oct 29, 2019, 2:46 PM UTC

imtringued wrote: post #234

ossworkerrights wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But why do we even need to cluster in massive cities, when today’s technologies allow for remote work for pretty much any non physical type of work? Accountants, developers, designers, architects, customer support, and so on can all be done remotely. That would reduce both the need to drive and to cram people in overcrowded public transport options.

The big reason is money. We now have large multinational corporations that service the entire world but have headquarters in one or two cities. So all the high paying jobs end up in a handful of cities. I live in an completely unremarkably small city except for the fact that there is one big employer with a lot of money. The rents and house prices are only going up.

And many of the companies are not actually in the urban core. And people live over a fairly large radius from the central city.

The discussion always seems to assume that you live in a dense central city or in Nowhereville USA. In reality, a huge number of people live in suburbs, exurbs, and less dense parts of the city.

There's no shortage of local shopping. And "downtown" is easily accessible for those times when someone wants to take advantage of the resources (like better restaurants and theater) that are mostly less available outside of the city proper.

Re: Driverless cars are stuck in a jam

#276

Post by likeclockwork » Tue, Oct 29, 2019, 2:49 PM UTC

evo_9 wrote: post #248

I don't understand why there is so much focus on automobiles instead of just about everything else. In every other instance - airplanes, boats, long-haul trucking - the problem in significantly less complex to solve. The only tangible reason I see for such disproportionate focus is some sense of false futurism; aka, driver-less cars have become the 'flying cars' of our times.

I think the difference between your other examples and personal automobiles is that aviation, shipping, and trucking are important industrial concerns that are worth paying someone to operate -- while the private driver is almost completely superfluous.

Re: Driverless cars are stuck in a jam

#277

Post by icebraining » Tue, Oct 29, 2019, 2:52 PM UTC

macspoofing wrote: post #122

icebraining wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why shouldn't it be higher? Why shouldn't it be on the level of airline travel? Who said it shouldn't?

OP. He was bemoaning the fact that we hold driverless cars to a higher standard than average drivers.

I think OP was just pointing out a fact, not bemoaning.

Re: Driverless cars are stuck in a jam

#278

Post by upstandingdude » Tue, Oct 29, 2019, 2:54 PM UTC

bpyne wrote: post #227

DickingAround wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is kind of silly. It's nice to imagine a world where people don't need cars. But most/all european cities, many of which we laid out before cars, still have cars. We all have cars because cars are incredibly useful; Got 4 young kids and you need to get groceries for the week? You're not going to bicycle them to the store and all that food home again in the mountains. Live in the city and want to go hiking 20 mil…

"Live in the city and want to go hiking 20 miles away?" Yes, you want to use a car in this case. But, in the life I imagine, I would rent a car. I dislike driving intensely, but I can see use-cases in which cars are necessary. However, Americans have been largely forced into car ownership, despite the expense and hassle of owning one. A reduction in car ownership coupled with more pedestrian-friendly community design…

I live in one of those european cities. We have at least six companies offering small electric scooters, even more for bicycles, pedelecs, larger electric scooter, cars, trucks everything. They litter the streets can be rented on a whim with your smartphone, totally hassle free. I used at least four different of these company in the last four days. BUT I still own a car, scooter and my own bicycles because it is super expensive if you use it regularly. Usually 1 Euro up front and then at least 20 cent per minute depending on the ride maybe even more. We have public transport but its depressing and annoying and also expensive. I usually go everywhere with my own bike but its broken down atm. I absolutely love driving and its basically the only way to get away from the city on the cheap! All those fancy new mobility solutions are only good for moving within the city and if you have a well paying job. I don't ever want to miss the freedom of leaving all of this expensive busy crap behind with my own car. Its all an addition but not a replacement.

And its true that if you have to rent you don't go hiking often because the money ticks away even while you are parked outside the zone (which would be the case for hiking) so you are always stressed out about hurrying. Also you always have to decide, do I want to/can I spend 50 Euros today just to go hiking? Or you know you could use your own car. Yes it also costs money but its way less and more spread out.

Re: Driverless cars are stuck in a jam

#279

Post by pjdemers » Tue, Oct 29, 2019, 2:54 PM UTC

I don't remember the source, but a few years ago I saw the results of a poll about self driving cars. The question was: "How much more would you pay for a car that could drive itself?" In the US, 50% of the responses said $0. It is not a feature that the market wants. That's why we don't have self driving cars.

Re: Driverless cars are stuck in a jam

#280

Post by rkangel » Tue, Oct 29, 2019, 2:55 PM UTC

jcranmer wrote: post #249

rkangel wrote: post #143

There is an anecdote I half remember, that I would like to find the original source of, because it's illustrative when explaining the issues. It goes something like: In the 70s/80s a research group was working on a CAD system. After adding all sorts of features, the professor assigned a task to one of his students to make it respond to voice commands. The professor expected this to take only a few months. It is diffi…

The classic AI anecdote is that the problem of object recognition in images was assigned as a summer project in 1966. It was still considered an open research problem 40 years later.

Ah, thank you. With a bit of further googling, I found this delightful document:

http://people.csail.mit.edu/brooks/idocs/AIM-100.pdf