Driverless cars are stuck in a jam • Hacker News Board

Re: Driverless cars are stuck in a jam

#261

Post by Steltek » Tue, Oct 29, 2019, 2:29 PM UTC

WhompingWindows wrote: post #240

crocal wrote: post #8

The article misses an important point. It’s not only a problem of technology, it’s also a problem of risk acceptance. While we accept to be killed by our own mistakes at the wheel, society (we) will not accept that a machine makes the same, even if the failure rate is on average /better/. This is the fundamental issue Elon Musk has. The driverless bar for safety is way higher than very clever driver assistance or eve…

Everyone said the first death via SDC would be a massive setback. After the Uber death in Arizona, have we seen that massive setback? I'd argue not, I think you are vastly over-estimating the risk aversion of the American public, which has allowed opioid epidemics, numerous pointless/corrupt foreign incursions, and allows the caging of children. Can we factually say we're a nation that highly values safety and human…

There are a lot of reasons Arizona didn't register on the radar much.

1) Arizona pretty much invited this problem through publicly denying oversight or responsibility. This is more a problem for Arizonians than it is for self driving tech. If things were done above board, there would be more questions and concern.

2) Everyone is used to Ubers driving badly, nearly killing other people, and generally escaping the law. This wouldn't be tolerated from Waymo/Google.

3) Deceitful PR with the camera footage painted this as solely the pedestrian's fault and not an alarming sensor/software issue.

Re: Driverless cars are stuck in a jam

#262

Post by jcranmer » Tue, Oct 29, 2019, 2:29 PM UTC

petilon wrote: post #218

minutillo wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They've been selling it for years, I think since 2016. They've delivered it so far to nobody.

But they just delivered "Smart Summon" feature where the car drives itself to you in a parking lot. The rollout of this feature has been glitchy. But it gives them a lot of data which they will learn from and improve. Once they fix all the bugs in Smart Summon they will have made a major step forward. Self-driving safely in a parking lot is very hard--there may be kids walking about randomly, other cars moving in unp…

That reminds me of the canard I haven't seen in quite some time: "Tesla is going to win the self-driving race because they've got the most data!" Has this died because people have started to finally understand that the logic doesn't actually hold, or is it because Musk/Tesla have stopped promising that full self-driving is actually imminent?

Re: Driverless cars are stuck in a jam

#263

Post by bpyne » Tue, Oct 29, 2019, 2:30 PM UTC

cloudwalking wrote: post #256

bpyne wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Live in the city and want to go hiking 20 miles away?" Yes, you want to use a car in this case. But, in the life I imagine, I would rent a car. I dislike driving intensely, but I can see use-cases in which cars are necessary. However, Americans have been largely forced into car ownership, despite the expense and hassle of owning one. A reduction in car ownership coupled with more pedestrian-friendly community design…

If you have to rent a car to go hiking, you aren't going to hike very often.

And why is that?

Re: Driverless cars are stuck in a jam

#264

Post by elisharobinson » Tue, Oct 29, 2019, 2:31 PM UTC

why is this foam of words called an article . And why is this on the first page of HN .

Re: Driverless cars are stuck in a jam

#265

Post by Steltek » Tue, Oct 29, 2019, 2:32 PM UTC

michaelt wrote: post #127

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> slightly more comfortable transport. Slightly more comfortable than what? Horses? Bicycles? Walking? There were 158,493 registered deaths in Australia in 2018, [1] of which 1137 were due to motor vehicle accidents [1]. Motor vehicle related deaths don't even rate in the top 20 causes of death. [also 1] The rate of motor vehicle related deaths in Australia peaked in 1970 at 30.4 per 100,000 population per year, and…

> Motor vehicle related deaths don't even rate in the top 20 causes of death. According to [1] in the US road traffic accidents are the 17th-most-common cause of death across all age ranges. But among 15-24 year olds? Number 1 cause of death. In fact you have to reach age 45 before road traffic accidents are even outside the top five. If you really want to ramp up the rhetoric, compare road deaths to mass shootings a…

And about the other causes of death, I want to see how driving correlates with obesity and heart disease. Then throw in depression and mental anguish that's endemic in the rush hour commute. Sitting for 3 hours in a car versus walking a little more and taking the bus sounds like a really bad trade for your health.

Re: Driverless cars are stuck in a jam

#266

Post by bogle » Tue, Oct 29, 2019, 2:33 PM UTC

ageitgey wrote: post #177

axilmar wrote: post #175

The AI part of autonomous driving could have easily been handled by creating a network of roads (that is, converting existing roads) that has the appropriate markings and that is easy navigable by machines. But that requires cooperation between governments and/with the private sector, and in 2019, God forbid that.

That's called trains.

And isn't it interesting that even though we've had driverless trains for decades many of them still require a driver?

In London the DLR (Docklands Light Railway) is fully automatic. In Tokyo the trains are computer controlled but a driver takes over outside of peak hours, apparently for practice.

So perhaps we'll never get past a self-driving car requiring a human operator at least pretending to pay attention (so no real change there, then).

Re: Driverless cars are stuck in a jam

#267

Post by ryan93 » Tue, Oct 29, 2019, 2:38 PM UTC

bpyne wrote: post #263

cloudwalking wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have to rent a car to go hiking, you aren't going to hike very often.

And why is that?

Dont pretend like its normal to go through the hassle and expense of car rental just to do a routine activity

Re: Driverless cars are stuck in a jam

#268

Post by Steltek » Tue, Oct 29, 2019, 2:39 PM UTC

diffeomorphism wrote: post #102

baroffoos wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>While we accept to be killed by our own mistakes at the wheel, society (we) will not accept that a machine makes the same Ideally we should not be accepting either. It is outrageous how many people we allow to be killed regularly for slightly more comfortable transport.

Ideally, I would like a pony. Realistically there is no alternative option, so there is no question. > for slightly more comfortable transport In some large metro areas, maybe. Outside of that bubble millions of people depend on a car to even be able to work.

Large metro areas effectively subsidize the rural areas. Those millions of people have enjoyed amazingly subsidized civil engineering to have that car commute. If those commutes built-in the correct costs in land usage, gov budget impact, and environmental impact, those commutes would be untenable.

Re: Driverless cars are stuck in a jam

#269

Post by jdavis703 » Tue, Oct 29, 2019, 2:40 PM UTC

ivanhoe wrote: post #245

bogle wrote: post #133

If we expect driverless cars to be further delayed and we continue building our cities to encourage micromobility (bikes, electric scooters, segregated lanes, car free streets, etc.) then at which point does the value of the driverless car become moot because we no longer drive? Does this sound unlikely? Consider European cities like Copenhagen and Amsterdam which have encouraged cycling over the last two decades and…

What you're saying is taking into account only big cities and young population, but in small places and suburbs you depend on cars to do anything, get anywhere. Old people can't be expected to walk far or drive scooters and bikes everyday. And population is mostly getting older, plus with the rise of remote work I presume that more and more people will move outside the big urban centers looking for slower pace and ch…

> Old people can't be expected to walk far or drive scooters and bikes everyday.

Yet that's what one sees in Copenhagen.

Re: Driverless cars are stuck in a jam

#270

Post by PhasmaFelis » Tue, Oct 29, 2019, 2:40 PM UTC

bogle wrote: post #133

If we expect driverless cars to be further delayed and we continue building our cities to encourage micromobility (bikes, electric scooters, segregated lanes, car free streets, etc.) then at which point does the value of the driverless car become moot because we no longer drive? Does this sound unlikely? Consider European cities like Copenhagen and Amsterdam which have encouraged cycling over the last two decades and…

> Also, why would I prefer a driverless taxi if an electric car with a human driver costs no more?

Is that something that seems likely to happen?

But even assuming it does, I suppose the answer would be because you don't have to worry about finding parking for a taxi, or walking to wherever you parked last night. With a little forethought, you can step right out your door and into your waiting vehicle.